Who insists on roll bars in NZ?

[Bruce Fielding]

Is it the authorities?

Is it the trackday organisers?

Or is it the tracks?

If it's the first, then on private land, surely you can do what you like.

If it's the last, then you're scuppered.

If it's the  TDO's then why not organise your own trackday and have whatever rules you like?

Alternatively, start a pressure group as there must be other marques that aren't allowed who would band together with you. Or find out who is allowed without roll bars and lobby. Lobby the sports authority, or better yet, lobby the government about restrictive practices.

[KiwiXTR2]

For trackdays it's normally the track owners who find it easier to say "MSNZ Schedule" rather than think about it.

My Westfield rollbar is FIA approved but not MSNZ approved.

Any trackday I've been to (and that's heaps) I have been allowed to run one-up no questions asked.  Many have however specified "No passengers unless you have a MSNZ Schedule rollcage"

More recently, after getting scrutineered for a clubsport race, I have been given a dispensation to take passengers out at Taupo during subsequent trackdays. 

The group that gets most hassle about the rollbar issue is the Lotus Elise/Exige guys.  They are probably also the most similar group in NZ to Atom owners in terms of investment in their toys, buy a quality vehicle rather than adding rice to a junkheap, international experience of trackdays etc.

If you were to contact the PlayDayOnTrack guys I'm sure Gary & Tony would be more than happy for you to run.  I'll be doing their next Taupo event in May and would be happy to introduce you.  They also have some early reserve dates for Hampton Downs 

[apollyon25]

It depends on the day.

Fraser Club track day was a private event and therefore stated the rules that they wanted.
The controlled testing day I was going to attend last week was an open day and did not have the MSNZ rules tagged onto it.
The event at Taupo I was hoping to attend does have the MSNZ rules governing the event and as such requires the half cage as a minimum for open topped or 'convertible' style cars.

Would appreciate an intro to the PlayDayOnTrack guys thanks!

One of the main reasons for including the MSNZ rules is to weed out the boy-racers who think they can drive, from the event.
It shows some concession to safety and common sense if they are able to fit the cages and extinguishers etc.

[KiwiXTR2]

[quote="apollyon25"]
Would appreciate an intro to the PlayDayOnTrack guys thanks!
[/quote]

This is their old website PlayDayOnTrack there is a new one in beta that is just about to launch 

Their next day at Taupo is Monday 12th May and only $110 for Track 1 !!! 

You can contact the two organisers of PlayDayOnTrack, Tony Bowman and Gary Stirling, by email on playday@playdayontrack.co.nz

Tell them that Graham recommended their trackdays and you have an even more strange looking car than an XTR2 

[wisp]

[quote="KiwiXTR2"]
For trackdays it's normally the track owners who find it easier to say "MSNZ Schedule" rather than think about it.

My Westfield rollbar is FIA approved but not MSNZ approved.

Any trackday I've been to (and that's heaps) I have been allowed to run one-up no questions asked.  Many have however specified "No passengers unless you have a MSNZ Schedule rollcage"

[/quote]

This is the only MSNZ approved rollcage  for an Atom that I am aware of...





I contacted MSNZ some time ago about this issue and was sent the following response..

"All open (no permanent roof) cars are required to have homologated (approved) roll protection fitted to all but the most basic of competition events, be they MX5's, Lotus 7's, or Atoms.

The technical regulations for all vehicles can be found online at:
http://www.motorsport.org.nz/Pdf/M33%20App2%20SchA.pdf

The specifics on roll protection homologation is under section 4.4 of that chapter."

It was also mentioned,  in the email, that ".... there is only one Atom with homologated roll protection in NZ." Which I took to be the SI car , pictured above.

The most important words are in the first sentence. ie"competition events".  On any private club or training day racing is forbidden. The minute you introduce a race into the days program you are obliged to apply for a MSNZ permit for the event and comply to the necessary criteria.

[quote="apollyon25"]
Fraser Club track day was a private event and therefore stated the rules that they wanted.

[/quote]

Not exactly true. They can not legally have a race on the days events without a permit.

[quote="apollyon25"]
One of the main reasons for including the MSNZ rules is to weed out the boy-racers who think they can drive, from the event.
It shows some concession to safety and common sense if they are able to fit the cages and extinguishers etc.

[/quote]

There are all ages and types of people in motor sport. No one is forbidden because the are a "boy-racer" A middle aged person how invests in ant Atom could easily be pinned with that label. The only reason for MSNZ rules are for SAFETY in competition events, for all ages.

[apollyon25]

[quote="wisp"]
This is the only MSNZ approved rollcage  for an Atom that I am aware of...
[/quote]

If you take passengers, you must have a full cage.
If you dont you just need to have a half roll-over bar (behind seats)

[quote="wisp"]
[quote="apollyon25"]
Fraser Club track day was a private event and therefore stated the rules that they wanted.
[/quote]

Not exactly true. They can not legally have a race on the days events without a permit.

[/quote]

Who said anything about a race? I sure as hell didnt. It was a track day, it was not timed, nor a race event.

[quote="wisp"]
[quote="apollyon25"]
One of the main reasons for including the MSNZ rules is to weed out the boy-racers who think they can drive, from the event.
It shows some concession to safety and common sense if they are able to fit the cages and extinguishers etc.

[/quote]

There are all ages and types of people in motor sport. No one is forbidden because the are a "boy-racer" A middle aged person how invests in ant Atom could easily be pinned with that label. The only reason for MSNZ rules are for SAFETY in competition events, for all ages.

[/quote]

Yes the rules are for safety primarily however the fact the event applies those rules also serves to weed out the boy-racers...

And I'm not middle aged thankyou very much.

[wisp]

[quote="apollyon25"]
[quote="wisp"]
[quote="apollyon25"]
Fraser Club track day was a private event and therefore stated the rules that they wanted.
[/quote]

Not exactly true. They can not legally have a race on the days events without a permit.

[/quote]

Who said anything about a race? I sure as hell didnt. It was a track day, it was not timed, nor a race event.

[/quote]

J, you have taken this out of context. My point was that car clubs can not make up there own rules at club days. Any racing is governed by MSNZ. I did not say there was a race, just that clubs can not have them without going through proper procedure.


[quote="apollyon25"]
[quote="wisp"]
This is the only MSNZ approved rollcage  for an Atom that I am aware of...
[/quote]

If you take passengers, you must have a full cage.
If you dont you just need to have a half roll-over bar (behind seats)

[/quote]

Likewise this is not totally correct either. Some events require a roll cage whether you are carrying a passenger or not.

Frankly I don't understand what carrying passengers has to do with me mentioning Ferrit's roll cage being the only one approved by MSNZ for use on an Atom. My comment was posted in reply to KiwiXTR2 saying his was FIA but not but not MSNZ approved.


[quote="apollyon25"]
[quote="wisp"]
[quote="wisp"]
[quote="apollyon25"]
One of the main reasons for including the MSNZ rules is to weed out the boy-racers who think they can drive, from the event.
It shows some concession to safety and common sense if they are able to fit the cages and extinguishers etc.

[/quote]

There are all ages and types of people in motor sport. No one is forbidden because the are a "boy-racer" A middle aged person how invests in ant Atom could easily be pinned with that label. The only reason for MSNZ rules are for SAFETY in competition events, for all ages.

[/quote]

Yes the rules are for safety primarily however the fact the event applies those rules also serves to weed out the boy-racers...

And I'm not middle aged thankyou very much.

[/quote]
[/quote]


I think my comment reads "A middle aged" not "you middle aged". It was a generalisation as to how the term can be applied to anyone and to think that MSNZ is trying to exclude young guys who have a love of cars, especially on the grounds of being part of a particular sub-culture, is utter BS.

There is one reason for the rules and one reason only, "SAFETY". The rules apply to everyone not specifically one person.

The previous post was supposed to be of assistance by sharing the information that I have taken the time to gather for all Atom owners in NZ. If owners want to tootle around at a track for the hell of it then there are not really any major issues. However if owners want to measure themselves and their machine against others in a competitive class, like Ferrit does against Van Diemens, then they are best to read the MSNZ documents.

[apollyon25]

[quote="wisp"]
J, you have taken this out of context. My point was that car clubs can not make up there own rules at club days. Any racing is governed by MSNZ. I did not say there was a race, just that clubs can not have them without going through proper procedure.
[/quote]

If the track is hired out by the owners of the track under no regulatory overheads then the hiree can impose whatever rules they like or they can adopt sections of the MSNZ regs. If however the event is marked or listed or obtained for 'race' criteria, then MSNZ as the governing body assumes the regulatory overhead and imposes its rules.
Case in point - playdayontrack - not defined as a race event so dont need MSNZ rules. Organisers impose their own rules. Case in point - Fraser Club Trackday - again not defined as race event and therefore not under MSNZ. Case in point - Taupo trackday I was planning on attending - classified as a timed event with MSNZ rules imposed for that class. Case in point - the trackday I was supposed to go to before Easter, was a controlled testing day therefore not under MSNZ rules.

[quote="wisp"]
Likewise this is not totally correct either. Some events require a roll cage whether you are carrying a passenger or not.
[/quote]

Probably, but that is in the tables too. In the tables they state various schedules for what constitutes a full cage being required and what doesnt.

[quote="wisp"]
Frankly I don't understand what carrying passengers has to do with me mentioning Ferrit's roll cage being the only one approved by MSNZ for use on an Atom. My comment was posted in reply to KiwiXTR2 saying his was FIA but not but not MSNZ approved.
[/quote]

Again this is required for full 'race' events as the tables identify. Not for clubsport or whatever its called in the manual.

[quote="wisp"]
There are all ages and types of people in motor sport. No one is forbidden because the are a "boy-racer" A middle aged person how invests in ant Atom could easily be pinned with that label. The only reason for MSNZ rules are for SAFETY in competition events, for all ages.
[/quote]

[quote="wisp"]
It was a generalisation as to how the term can be applied to anyone and to think that MSNZ is trying to exclude young guys who have a love of cars, especially on the grounds of being part of a particular sub-culture, is utter BS.
[/quote]

Thats not what I said at all.

The fact that an event has MSNZ rules imposed IS for safety. YES.

It SERVES to exclude boy racers by the very same reasons I am currently excluded. I dont have the required rollover protection nor a fire extinguisher fitted. Its not to say boy-racers cannot attend, they can do so just as easily as I can, plonk money down, get bits required fitted and attend.

It SERVES to exclude boy racers because they have to plonk money down, get bits required fitted. It excludes because FEW, not ALL will be willing to do this to their car which, if the general definition of 'boy-racer' holds, are primarily concerned with POSING.

It will CLEARLY not exclude the boy-racer element who are willing to outlay the cash and have their car brought up to code. However this will likely be good as they will then be exposed to driving better and with more control, and have a greater respect for the power they wield in a vehicle.
If they dont drive responsibly around the track then likely the marshalls and event organisers will kick them out and ban them from future events.

MSNZ does not exclude anyone by default... it excludes cars and drivers if the rules for the event are breached.
The exact same way as the organiser can refuse someone if they have left their helmet at home... dont meet the rules for the day (whose ever these are...) and are subsequently excluded.

[quote="wisp"]
The previous post was supposed to be of assistance by sharing the information that I have taken the time to gather for all Atom owners in NZ. If owners want to tootle around at a track for the hell of it then there are not really any major issues. However if owners want to measure themselves and their machine against others in a competitive class, like Ferrit does against Van Diemens, then they are best to read the MSNZ documents.
[/quote]

Which again comes back to my point about what the event is categorised as. Youve said it yourself - "if owners want to measure themselves and their machine against others in a competitive class"... which according to the MSNZ book states a full welded cage.

I want to learn car control in a car that inherently outstrips my ability to control i.e. Atom. The safest environment for both car and driver is a track. I can attend a non MSNZ overseen event, but there is a higher likelyhood of boy-racers being present and therefore a higher risk of injury to car/me. There are simply less of them (boyracers) at a MSNZ event, but by going to one of those I must obtain the necessary bits for that event, for that class of event as stated by the MSNZ regs.

Ferrit has a Ferrari and two Atoms sitting in the garage doesnt he?... so clearly he can afford to write off an Atom in a race. I am not prepared to write off a car I have spent this amount of money on or waited so long to get. I cannot afford to replace it nor abide the wait for the replacement, so I simply wont enter into an environment that inherently is not insured or significantly controlled to reduce the risk considerably.
This alone defines the criteria for me...

[KiwiXTR2]

[quote="apollyon25"]
. . . I want to learn car control in a car that inherently outstrips my ability to control i.e. Atom. The safest environment for both car and driver is a track. I can attend a non MSNZ overseen event, but there is a higher likelyhood of boy-racers being present and therefore a higher risk of injury to car/me. There are simply less of them (boyracers) at a MSNZ event, but by going to one of those I must obtain the necessary bits for that event, for that class of event as stated by the MSNZ regs.
[/quote]
You would be fine in most properly organised 'trackdays' as nobody wants a bunch of boyracers or drifters endangering their pride & joy or their life & limb.  Normally anyone seen doing any drifting or other unsafe driving will be given a stern talking to, and a second occurance would see them leaving the track.

You definately want to keep away from 'opendays' as they tend to have more loose units.

The other things is the track itself.  Pukekohe is really quite bumpy and has two bits that are particularly dangerous in my view.  Taupo has a much better surface, better visability, better run-off areas and is without doubt the safest track in the country (don't know about Hampton Downs as yet ).  Even though I live north of Auckland I've travelled to about 12-13 trackdays at Taupo since my last one at Pukekohe.

[wisp]

[quote="apollyon25"]
[quote="wisp"]
J, you have taken this out of context. My point was that car clubs can not make up there own rules at club days. Any racing is governed by MSNZ. I did not say there was a race, just that clubs can not have them without going through proper procedure.
[/quote]

If however the event is marked or listed or obtained for 'race' criteria, then MSNZ as the governing body assumes the regulatory overhead and imposes its rules.
[/quote]

Isn't that what I said both first and second time. 

[quote="apollyon25"]
[quote="wisp"]
Likewise this is not totally correct either. Some events require a roll cage whether you are carrying a passenger or not.
[/quote]

Probably, but that is in the tables too. In the tables they state various schedules for what constitutes a full cage being required and what doesnt.
[/quote]

Yes and you'll find they are not all passenger dependant.

[quote="apollyon25"]
[quote="wisp"]
There are all ages and types of people in motor sport. No one is forbidden because the are a "boy-racer" A middle aged person how invests in ant Atom could easily be pinned with that label. The only reason for MSNZ rules are for SAFETY in competition events, for all ages.
[/quote]

[quote="wisp"]
It was a generalisation as to how the term can be applied to anyone and to think that MSNZ is trying to exclude young guys who have a love of cars, especially on the grounds of being part of a particular sub-culture, is utter BS.
[/quote]

Thats not what I said at all.

The fact that an event has MSNZ rules imposed IS for safety. YES.

It SERVES to exclude boy racers .....

Its not to say boy-racers cannot attend.....

It will CLEARLY not exclude the boy-racer element....

MSNZ does not exclude anyone by default......
[/quote]

Not only sounds like BS but that your not sure who it excludes. 


I think the assumption about Ferrit is unfair. We don't know the situation with his cars as some are part of a business. One could easily say that you can afford both a Pugeot and an Atom so you must be some rich bastard that would not care if you bent either. A totaly unfair assumption, but then to assume is to make and ASS of .....

[Bruce Fielding]

So, my point in starting this thread is made.

If you want to run your car on track without a roll cage, you can. Even if it means that you have to become a TDO.

[wisp]

[quote="KiwiXTR2"]
[quote="apollyon25"]
. . . I want to learn car control in a car that inherently outstrips my ability to control i.e. Atom. The safest environment for both car and driver is a track. I can attend a non MSNZ overseen event, but there is a higher likelyhood of boy-racers being present and therefore a higher risk of injury to car/me. There are simply less of them (boyracers) at a MSNZ event, but by going to one of those I must obtain the necessary bits for that event, for that class of event as stated by the MSNZ regs.
[/quote]
You would be fine in most properly organised 'trackdays' as nobody wants a bunch of boyracers or drifters endangering their pride & joy or their life & limb.  Normally anyone seen doing any drifting or other unsafe driving will be given a stern talking to, and a second occurance would see them leaving the track.

You definately want to keep away from 'opendays' as they tend to have more loose units.

The other things is the track itself.  Pukekohe is really quite bumpy and has two bits that are particularly dangerous in my view.  Taupo has a much better surface, better visability, better run-off areas and is without doubt the safest track in the country (don't know about Hampton Downs as yet ).  Even though I live north of Auckland I've travelled to about 12-13 trackdays at Taupo since my last one at Pukekohe.
[/quote]

Quite right. At a well organised event the organisers will deal with anyone that is posing a risk to others, whether they be amature, boy-racer or pro driver.

You have more chance of getting smacked or doing extensive damage to your vehicle in a competiton event alongside race drivers that have years of experience than you do at a club day with a with a handful of boy racers.
In the competitive arena you are pushing to the limit and everyone is playing for keeps.
At the trackday, the boy racer, who probably spent several months income for the paint job on his ride, is probably equally worried about some rich amature, who has more money than ability because he can afford an Atom, scratching his pride and joy's expensive paint work that he work so hard to obtain.

More to the truth is that you have 100x more chance of being run into by some housewife in her shopping basket at the traffic lights than suffering any damage at the two previous events. You might also not be wearing a helmet or have your roll bar fitted. Maybe the safest place is the garage  :-\

Pukekohe track alone does tend to claim a few vehicles without any other traffic being involved. e.g 1x Atom 2 demonstrator.

Hampton Downs is, like you say, too new to tell. Has Taupo had any fatals on the new setup? Puke sure has had it's share over the years.
The last time I was at a track day at Puke one of the cars copped a fence post throught the window after ending up on the grass at +200K. Both driver and passenger were very lucky. For the record: this was a private day, no MSNZ rules, no other car involved, the car has a roof plus a proper roll cage, despite helmets being worn if the post had hit them on the way through they would have been brown bread.

[apollyon25]

[quote="wisp"]
... who has more money than ability because he can afford an Atom, scratching his pride and joy's expensive paint work that he work so hard to obtain.
[/quote]

So, what you are saying here is, that some snot-nosed teenager who has worked hard at McDonalds for a couple of months  to get his $2k paint job might get upset if someone who has worked extremely frakin hard for 25 odd years to afford an $100k Atom scratches his paint job?

THAT sounds like BS!

[quote="wisp"]
Pukekohe track alone does tend to claim a few vehicles without any other traffic being involved. e.g 1x Atom 2 demonstrator.
[/quote]

Which by all accounts was solely due to driver error from failing to brake when told to on the first lap on cold tyres and brakes...

[quote="Bruce Fielding"]
So, my point in starting this thread is made.

If you want to run your car on track without a roll cage, you can. Even if it means that you have to become a TDO.
[/quote]

TDO?

The point I have been trying to make is that the distinction needs to be made between the different classes of what consititutes a 'race'.

Motorsport NZ defines the regulations and rules ONLY if operating in a race or competition or time trial or hill sprint etc event.
Controlled testing, club days and track open days are, if not deemed to be any from the above list, are not under MSNZ rules and regs unless the event organisers decide to do so.
Events like Dunlop Targa = Race = Full cage like Ferrits'.
Events stated as following MSNZ guidelines may require a full cage, but can often just have a half cage or a more braced roll over protection than is on the Atom.
Open events are open to all and drivers/cars are grouped. No rules other than those imposed on the day (helmet, overalls, waiver, fee, licence)
Track owners may at their discretion include a mandatory 'must meet MSNZ rules' in the hireage of the track, but its not a law to do so.

All I was saying was that I have it on good authority that when the MSNZ rules are invoked at a track event the boy-racer element is lessened noticeably.
For fraks sake... I drive too fast on the road in the PUG let alone the Atom! I'm a older-but-younger-than-Wisp boy racer! But at least on a track youre all heading in the same general direction... and if you pick your events you dont have to worry about breaking your car or losing your licence for doing over 140kph (which I think is the point this occurs at these days).

Lets put it another way... the most I intend to do for a 'cage' is a half cage/rollover protection much like that available for the US guys... Youve even seen the mounts for it John...
Im not going to 'Ferrit' the car just to race it... for that I'll save some more and buy that other Mk1, cage it and track that.

Man! this forum is hard work sometimes...

[Bruce Fielding]

[quote="apollyon25"]
TDO?
[/quote]

Track Day Organiser - the people that pay for the track and marshalls etc, then rent out spaces on the day. If you're running the event, you make the rules...

[KiwiXTR2]

Hampton Downs is really toooo new . . . about 8-10 months away from even opening  ;)  But I can't wait !!!

At Pukekohe trackdays I've seen dozens of bad solo off's and accidents - Mainly on the entry to the front straight which is fast, blind and scares the @$%# out of me, and at the Jennian sweeper off the end of the front straight, which is even faster.  There are other places for solo off's but they don't tend to be too bad.  Have also seen 2, 3, 4, 5+ car accidents at Pukekohe trackdays that tend to rack up the higher numbers due to the blind parts of the track.  These tend to be much worse for those involved because blame starts getting spread around.

This is an example of where some of the worse accidents happen http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSvE25pbTCg at about 4:45 into the video, just as my Westie makes a cameo appearance of crawling through the carnage that finished that particular trackday.  Video taken from a very nice Honda powered Elise.  :pop:

I've only ever seen 4 accidents at Taupo trackdays of which 3 were solo efforts:
- An older guy in a (heavy) Monaro who didn't follow advice to leave the traction control on, totalled the car before completing his first ever lap
- An older guy in a (heavy) Jag who didn't follow advice and went out in consecutive sessions without letting his brakes cool down on his first ever trackday and totalled the car
- A very experience Lotus driver got caught out by suddenly much heavier rain during a damp session and aquaplaned into a tyre-wall. Minor damage to the front clam.  Still ran the car at another trackday the following day.
- A coming together of a Mitsi GTO and some other japansese car after one went off and, rather than slow down, the other thought he would squeeze through just as the crashed car speared back onto the track off the tyre wall.

So the first two were entirely avoidable.  The third probably could have been avoided if the driver had realised who much heavier the rain had become oafter the session started and we are all now much more aware of that particular place of the track for standing water.  And in the forth I'm not sure what happened to the first car (which had very little damage fron the initial impact with the wall) but the following car could have avoided their involvement and the major damage to both cars by following proper trackday procedure by looking further down the track (rather than at the apex they're going through) and cutting their speed AS SOON as the noticed another car going off the track.