Ben, JD,
In changing to the VVT head, can the head be removed/fitted easily with the engine in the car or does the engine have to come out?
Rover Head Gasket Failure
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benyeats
Rover Head Gasket Failure
[quote="wisp"]
Ben, JD,
In changing to the VVT head, can the head be removed/fitted easily with the engine in the car or does the engine have to come out?
[/quote]
No it can be easily changed with the engine in situ, however you will also need to change your engine wiring loom and ECU (both very easy) as the VVC uses completely different electronics.
Ben
Ben, JD,
In changing to the VVT head, can the head be removed/fitted easily with the engine in the car or does the engine have to come out?
[/quote]
No it can be easily changed with the engine in situ, however you will also need to change your engine wiring loom and ECU (both very easy) as the VVC uses completely different electronics.
Ben
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wisp
Rover Head Gasket Failure
Thanks Ben. Just wanted to know how how easy the head came off and went back on. It looks like I've done the gasket on mine.
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The JD
Rover Head Gasket Failure
Ben's spot on, fairly simple, however I would argue that the time required and cost of gaskets etc would be more than sourcing a newish complete VVC engine!
My 160bhp MGF-Trophy 30'000 miler was £480 from reputable breaker, he left it in the Subframe (costs him more to dismantle!) included the gearbox all ancilliaries etc. Paid another £100 for the ECU, Loom and fob etc... But didnt recieve the coded alarm box (no ones fault didnt specifiy what or where it was), so went Emerald ECU.
I messed about with mine, ie Jenveys etc. But if you went for a straight swap, you could do it in a day! Without having to worry about torque settings of head bolts, cam timming, gaskets n sealants etc. In addition the newer engines (post 2003/4) are uprated in numerous ways; plus you stand more chance of getting all the gubbins thrown in and ask yourself why is someone selling a VVC head? as apposed to why is someone selling an engine out of a write off!
Looks like your in New Zealand!? If these engines are in short supply over there, contact: www.metrosalvage.co.uk and discuss shipping options. They supplied my engine "to spec" and are very proffesional, might be worth saying to them it was an ATOM refferal from the guy who "turned up in a mini only to find the engine subframe wouldnt fit in the boot" ahem!!! Failing that I could try and sort something out for you, but cant 100% gaurentee against bad luck, but could reduce likelyhood by usuall checks.
Made a few timming and fuel tweaks on mine over the weekend and can now hit rev-limit in 4th. Next step is to Turbo! Word on the street is the CR can be high as long as significant mitigation is deployed, thinking Charge Cooler and Octane boosting to resist detonation. Need to check, but recall 160bhp VVC units have stonger pistons as standard fitment; point being I dont want to dismantle engine, just bolt on goodies
My 160bhp MGF-Trophy 30'000 miler was £480 from reputable breaker, he left it in the Subframe (costs him more to dismantle!) included the gearbox all ancilliaries etc. Paid another £100 for the ECU, Loom and fob etc... But didnt recieve the coded alarm box (no ones fault didnt specifiy what or where it was), so went Emerald ECU.
I messed about with mine, ie Jenveys etc. But if you went for a straight swap, you could do it in a day! Without having to worry about torque settings of head bolts, cam timming, gaskets n sealants etc. In addition the newer engines (post 2003/4) are uprated in numerous ways; plus you stand more chance of getting all the gubbins thrown in and ask yourself why is someone selling a VVC head? as apposed to why is someone selling an engine out of a write off!
Looks like your in New Zealand!? If these engines are in short supply over there, contact: www.metrosalvage.co.uk and discuss shipping options. They supplied my engine "to spec" and are very proffesional, might be worth saying to them it was an ATOM refferal from the guy who "turned up in a mini only to find the engine subframe wouldnt fit in the boot" ahem!!! Failing that I could try and sort something out for you, but cant 100% gaurentee against bad luck, but could reduce likelyhood by usuall checks.
Made a few timming and fuel tweaks on mine over the weekend and can now hit rev-limit in 4th. Next step is to Turbo! Word on the street is the CR can be high as long as significant mitigation is deployed, thinking Charge Cooler and Octane boosting to resist detonation. Need to check, but recall 160bhp VVC units have stonger pistons as standard fitment; point being I dont want to dismantle engine, just bolt on goodies
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wisp
Rover Head Gasket Failure
They are not overly common here so not as cheap. £480 is just over $1200. I've seen fully overhauled MGF engines on the net that are available locally for $2500-$2700. They are not VVT. It's quite a lot considering you can get a complete car for $5000--$9000. Either way I think a new gasket would be a lot cheaper.
I found this on the Sands Mechanical site:
Casting number Port size Head type
LDF 10091 31mm 1.4 K low port
LDF 10233 34mm 1.6/1.8K high port
LDF 10239 34mm 1.6/1.8K high port
LDF 106350 34mm 1.6/1.8K high port
LDF 105460 36mm VVC
LDF 106970 36mm VVC
LDF 10290 36mm VHPD
I found this on the Sands Mechanical site:
Casting number Port size Head type
LDF 10091 31mm 1.4 K low port
LDF 10233 34mm 1.6/1.8K high port
LDF 10239 34mm 1.6/1.8K high port
LDF 106350 34mm 1.6/1.8K high port
LDF 105460 36mm VVC
LDF 106970 36mm VVC
LDF 10290 36mm VHPD
Last edited by wisp on Mon Mar 30, 2009 10:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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The JD
Rover Head Gasket Failure
Wisp, The 160bhp VVC is the BEST head with changed valve orientation and chamber pockets, other than that its the same as a std VVC head.
I have a spare 145bhp VVC head and gubbins going spare, needs 2 new valve guides and for max power 4 new inlet valves as the others are (rather suprisingly) high flow "thin head" Paul Ivey types. £100 plus postage if you like as its taking up shelf space, will throw in the ECU, but will need to get the Alarm feature disabled or get it matched to the Alarm box already in your ATOM. You will still need a loom. Having said that, a popular route is to blank off the VVC mech and add in hot cams, whilst at it have the head re-worked and proffesionally built up. Have a look at : http://www.dvapower.com/ Dave Andrews is to the K-Series what David Vizard was to the A-Series (mini). If your interested have a chat with DVA, I dont mind shipping the head to him and you know you will get a A1 result.
Then again, why not just go for a Rover 75 turbo engine, that way its just a game of where to put the Intercoolers and Charge coolers... whereupon you wind up the boost to, well, until it blows up I guess, say 250bhp! Although there are guys who have taken them to 400bhp before melting headgaskets
Reading your post again, what about an insurance write off? Do let us know if we can be of any assistance, K-Series parts are plentifull and cheap here (for the time being!).
JD
I have a spare 145bhp VVC head and gubbins going spare, needs 2 new valve guides and for max power 4 new inlet valves as the others are (rather suprisingly) high flow "thin head" Paul Ivey types. £100 plus postage if you like as its taking up shelf space, will throw in the ECU, but will need to get the Alarm feature disabled or get it matched to the Alarm box already in your ATOM. You will still need a loom. Having said that, a popular route is to blank off the VVC mech and add in hot cams, whilst at it have the head re-worked and proffesionally built up. Have a look at : http://www.dvapower.com/ Dave Andrews is to the K-Series what David Vizard was to the A-Series (mini). If your interested have a chat with DVA, I dont mind shipping the head to him and you know you will get a A1 result.
Then again, why not just go for a Rover 75 turbo engine, that way its just a game of where to put the Intercoolers and Charge coolers... whereupon you wind up the boost to, well, until it blows up I guess, say 250bhp! Although there are guys who have taken them to 400bhp before melting headgaskets
Reading your post again, what about an insurance write off? Do let us know if we can be of any assistance, K-Series parts are plentifull and cheap here (for the time being!).
JD
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benyeats
Rover Head Gasket Failure
Suspect the problem is how long it will take to get an engine from here to you rather than cost.
The other question is can you source the uprated Land Rover head gasket, makes a difference to the longevity of the replacement by all accounts.
Ben
The other question is can you source the uprated Land Rover head gasket, makes a difference to the longevity of the replacement by all accounts.
Ben
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wisp
Rover Head Gasket Failure
[quote="benyeats"]
Suspect the problem is how long it will take to get an engine from here to you rather than cost.
The other question is can you source the uprated Land Rover head gasket, makes a difference to the longevity of the replacement by all accounts.
Ben
[/quote]
Exactly. Plus anything that weighs much more the a few grams will cost a shitload to ship here. Probably more than what the part is worth.
A new gasket used by those specialising in Rover servicing costs $180.
Then there is the "it will probably need planning because it may be warped or re-hardened due to the overheating softening it."
Or a "liner may have dropped, etc, etc." It was also suggested that the head bolts be replaced, all 10, at $30 each. Plus it will take ages to get done. Do you really have to lock the cams in place at TDC before removing the head?
Suspect the problem is how long it will take to get an engine from here to you rather than cost.
The other question is can you source the uprated Land Rover head gasket, makes a difference to the longevity of the replacement by all accounts.
Ben
[/quote]
Exactly. Plus anything that weighs much more the a few grams will cost a shitload to ship here. Probably more than what the part is worth.
A new gasket used by those specialising in Rover servicing costs $180.
Then there is the "it will probably need planning because it may be warped or re-hardened due to the overheating softening it."
Or a "liner may have dropped, etc, etc." It was also suggested that the head bolts be replaced, all 10, at $30 each. Plus it will take ages to get done. Do you really have to lock the cams in place at TDC before removing the head?
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The JD
Rover Head Gasket Failure
All sounds a bit depressing (like the world economy) only difference is YOUR in charge and can take reasonable steps to mitigate potential losses.
Shipping cant be that expensive? Have you checked? Why not line up customers in NZ and then source to order and fill a crate... make some money while your at it. The Rover Parts bin is being sold off as we speak, Im filling my boots (sheds) with Rover OEM kit as inflation is the only way the insolvent economys can wipe out the debt. 10 years from now a set of Rover liners or pistons will be 200% what they are now, given that the K-Series made it into sooooo many cars its a no brainer. Sound wierd? A Mk1 metro Turbo engine (A-series) "running sounded fine when removed from car in 1993" sold on ebay for £6000 a few weeks back, you could have bought a 100 of these for £250ea 10 years ago!
Rather off topic.. sorry!
Wisp, enjoy what you have and anjoy keeping it on the road as a factory spec, that way you will have a very rare beast in 20 years time as all the others are modded and molested or smashed up Satisfaction and achievement can be had this way for not a lot of money, heartache or hassle. No doubt folks like Ben or myself will happily source "lightweight" spares that you need before they become scarce.
If your really desperate for power have you though of Nitrous (NOS)? Can be plumed into a standard engine very easily and give the extra umph only when you need it.
Shipping cant be that expensive? Have you checked? Why not line up customers in NZ and then source to order and fill a crate... make some money while your at it. The Rover Parts bin is being sold off as we speak, Im filling my boots (sheds) with Rover OEM kit as inflation is the only way the insolvent economys can wipe out the debt. 10 years from now a set of Rover liners or pistons will be 200% what they are now, given that the K-Series made it into sooooo many cars its a no brainer. Sound wierd? A Mk1 metro Turbo engine (A-series) "running sounded fine when removed from car in 1993" sold on ebay for £6000 a few weeks back, you could have bought a 100 of these for £250ea 10 years ago!
Rather off topic.. sorry!
Wisp, enjoy what you have and anjoy keeping it on the road as a factory spec, that way you will have a very rare beast in 20 years time as all the others are modded and molested or smashed up
Satisfaction and achievement can be had this way for not a lot of money, heartache or hassle. No doubt folks like Ben or myself will happily source "lightweight" spares that you need before they become scarce.If your really desperate for power have you though of Nitrous (NOS)? Can be plumed into a standard engine very easily and give the extra umph only when you need it.
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wisp
Rover Head Gasket Failure
Thanks JD I'll bear it in mind. A locally overhauled K VVT, with 12 month warranty, is $4162.50 (£1628.37). That's exchange only as they have no motors for sale so you have to give one to get one.
I am not that fussed on more HP at present. Just really want to be back on the road asap. If I do decide to go HP mad I may look at the bolt-on that was mentioned here.. http://forum.atomclub.com/https://atomc ... 59#p140759
I am not that fussed on more HP at present. Just really want to be back on the road asap. If I do decide to go HP mad I may look at the bolt-on that was mentioned here.. http://forum.atomclub.com/https://atomc ... 59#p140759
Last edited by wisp on Fri Aug 21, 2009 12:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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benyeats
Rover Head Gasket Failure
[quote="wisp"]
A new gasket used by those specialising in Rover servicing costs $180.
Then there is the "it will probably need planning because it may be warped or re-hardened due to the overheating softening it."
Or a "liner may have dropped, etc, etc." It was also suggested that the head bolts be replaced, all 10, at $30 each. Plus it will take ages to get done. Do you really have to lock the cams in place at TDC before removing the head?
[/quote]
iirc the bolts only have to be replaced if they have stretched out of spec, see the workshop manual for details.
The gaskets are light enough so if they are cheaper here I am sure I can send one no problem, what is $180 in either GBP or USD?
Ben
A new gasket used by those specialising in Rover servicing costs $180.
Then there is the "it will probably need planning because it may be warped or re-hardened due to the overheating softening it."
Or a "liner may have dropped, etc, etc." It was also suggested that the head bolts be replaced, all 10, at $30 each. Plus it will take ages to get done. Do you really have to lock the cams in place at TDC before removing the head?
[/quote]
iirc the bolts only have to be replaced if they have stretched out of spec, see the workshop manual for details.
The gaskets are light enough so if they are cheaper here I am sure I can send one no problem, what is $180 in either GBP or USD?
Ben
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wisp
Rover Head Gasket Failure
[quote="benyeats"]
iirc the bolts only have to be replaced if they have stretched out of spec, see the workshop manual for details.
The gaskets are light enough so if they are cheaper here I am sure I can send one no problem, what is $180 in either GBP or USD?
Ben
[/quote]
£69 landed in NZ and including all taxes. I can probably pick one upon the weekend as there seem to be a couple of places with stock.
I'll check the manual for the bolt lengths. Which model Rover do you normally work to?
I guess the first step is to find the special socket to undo the head bolts. They are splined instead of having flats.
iirc the bolts only have to be replaced if they have stretched out of spec, see the workshop manual for details.
The gaskets are light enough so if they are cheaper here I am sure I can send one no problem, what is $180 in either GBP or USD?
Ben
[/quote]
£69 landed in NZ and including all taxes. I can probably pick one upon the weekend as there seem to be a couple of places with stock.
I'll check the manual for the bolt lengths. Which model Rover do you normally work to?
I guess the first step is to find the special socket to undo the head bolts. They are splined instead of having flats.
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The JD
Rover Head Gasket Failure
Dont be too inclined to fear the worst. Anealing (softening) requires aprox >120degC for more than an 1hr or say 140degC for 30mins constant.
If you simply have HGF, in a car that has good cooling (Atom does!) and dont drive until the waters all bolied away!! There should be no lasting damage. I wont labour the details as theres plenty of knowledgable articles out there, but suffice to say in your circumstances I suspect it is nothing more than a debonded silicon bead on the old style gasket; upgrade to the newer type and youl have no problems Im sure.
If you had melted the head you would have water in the oil, oil in the water AND oil & water spewing out of the top of the block where it meets the head all over the engine bay!! Please bare in mind most of the numptys that drive MGFs and Freelanders wouldnt have the first clue about HGF until someone pointed to the puddle of water and oil on their drives!
Slight indentation of the head from the "fire rings" is normal. If your still paranoid then go for the HG kit which includes a "saver shim" this will fractionally lower your CR.
Re the bolts, dont worry they will be fine, they are the most technical component of the entire engine! If in doubt just nip them up a 1/4 turn more than you need to. Any Rover manual will do as they all use the same HG procedure. I reckon you biggest problem will be the cam belt or something silly.... in this strange world we tend to cock up the simple stuff.
Last thought, take lots of pics as you go and use labelled clear plastic bags or tubs so you dont get caught out with left over bits!!
Good luck and enjoy
If you simply have HGF, in a car that has good cooling (Atom does!) and dont drive until the waters all bolied away!! There should be no lasting damage. I wont labour the details as theres plenty of knowledgable articles out there, but suffice to say in your circumstances I suspect it is nothing more than a debonded silicon bead on the old style gasket; upgrade to the newer type and youl have no problems Im sure.
If you had melted the head you would have water in the oil, oil in the water AND oil & water spewing out of the top of the block where it meets the head all over the engine bay!! Please bare in mind most of the numptys that drive MGFs and Freelanders wouldnt have the first clue about HGF until someone pointed to the puddle of water and oil on their drives!
Slight indentation of the head from the "fire rings" is normal. If your still paranoid then go for the HG kit which includes a "saver shim" this will fractionally lower your CR.
Re the bolts, dont worry they will be fine, they are the most technical component of the entire engine! If in doubt just nip them up a 1/4 turn more than you need to. Any Rover manual will do as they all use the same HG procedure. I reckon you biggest problem will be the cam belt or something silly.... in this strange world we tend to cock up the simple stuff.
Last thought, take lots of pics as you go and use labelled clear plastic bags or tubs so you dont get caught out with left over bits!!
Good luck and enjoy
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wisp
Rover Head Gasket Failure
Can you believe it? I'm still waiting on a HG kit from UK. Ordered 16th June with an ETA of 3 weeks.
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benyeats
Rover Head Gasket Failure
[quote="wisp"]
Can you believe it? I'm still waiting on a HG kit from UK. Ordered 16th June with an ETA of 3 weeks.
[/quote]
At least it is winter where you are!
I started another thread on gearbox removal but to keep all details on this thread I have now fitted a lighter flywheel, only tried revving it on a static car so far but the portents are good !
Ben
Can you believe it? I'm still waiting on a HG kit from UK. Ordered 16th June with an ETA of 3 weeks.
[/quote]
At least it is winter where you are!
I started another thread on gearbox removal but to keep all details on this thread I have now fitted a lighter flywheel, only tried revving it on a static car so far but the portents are good !
Ben
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