Mk1 Technical / Upgrade Thread

The original Rover powered Atom 1
NathanE

Re: Mk1 Technical / Upgrade Thread

Post by NathanE » Tue Mar 24, 2009 11:53 am

[quote="Ross McWilliam"]
I can tell you that sticking your gearbox in your Mum's dishwasher doesn't work very well (well, it leaves it clean, but the gears are will be a bit 'crunchy')....discovered this with a mini gearbox a long time ago...
[/quote]

Ross, you were supposed to fill it with transmission oil afterwards you know  ;)

ross

Re: Mk1 Technical / Upgrade Thread

Post by ross » Tue Mar 24, 2009 12:24 pm

Yeah, but I think the steam and salt had had a bit of a less than positive effect on the gears and bearings.  Shiny in areas though.  Ended up selling the box...

NathanE

Re: Mk1 Technical / Upgrade Thread

Post by NathanE » Tue Mar 24, 2009 4:15 pm

[quote="Ross McWilliam"]
Ended up selling the box...
[/quote]

I can just imagine - like new - see how shiney it is!

The JD

Re: Mk1 Technical / Upgrade Thread

Post by The JD » Thu Mar 26, 2009 10:54 pm

So, got it running but still wouldnt rev up correctly, discovered that the MAP sensor, or lack of, was trimming the fuel off, disabled it in the Emerald and away she went.

Gently down the road, opening up gradually... hmm pretty crap, thinking I should have gone for a BAM transplant then suddenly WHOOOOOSH! 6500-8000rpm just explodes with power! I kid you not, 8k and still wanting.

The VVC is factory limited around 7500 due to the hydraulic tappets, so back off and return to base to figure out whats amiss.
Spoke to Carl at Emerald (they are very knowledgable) who suggested I look at the ECU live screen on my laptop and compare TARGET VVC duration with ACTUAL VVC duration; bang on! the VVC was static, which explained the floppy power low-mid.

Cause was easy, when swapping over looms there was a change with VVC Oil tmp sender which was coulered differently, I had hooked up 1 of the 2 vvc solenoids to to the tmp sender and visa versa.. DOH! No damage done I hoped.

Back onto the road and woweee, I say woweee but its more like vvvvrrrrrrrrooooommmwaaaaaAAAA! Incredible wide band of power, gone had the kick at 6500, replaced by a heave of power from 2000rpm.

Went for top whack but was disapointed that I couldnt hit the rev limiter in 4th let alone 5th despite the CR box with long 1st and short 5th. My mistake being a 3.9 rather than 4.2 final drive :(

So will have to come out again. And am now looking to source a Turbo from Rover75 or MG ZT. As no one has ever Turboed a VVC yet and Id hate to waste the opportunity whilst the motors out. Cant be bothered to drop the CR so wont go mad with PSI.... or will I?

benyeats

Re: Mk1 Technical / Upgrade Thread

Post by benyeats » Fri Mar 27, 2009 6:30 am

[quote="The JD"]
The VVC is factory limited around 7500 due to the hydraulic tappets, so back off and return to base to figure out whats amiss.
Spoke to Carl at Emerald (they are very knowledgable) who suggested I look at the ECU live screen on my laptop and compare TARGET VVC duration with ACTUAL VVC duration; bang on! the VVC was static, which explained the floppy power low-mid.

[/quote]

Huge difference isn't it, especially the torque across the rev range its really noticable

Annoying that the connectors are the same on so many of the sensors !  Impressed that you managed to get a VVC one and oil temp switched, must have been stretching the loom somewhat !

I sold my old engine yesterday and the chap who bought it spoke about the pistons being a potential weak point of the K-series at high revs, have not had a chance to read up on this so for not its 'bloke down the pub' stuff but may be worth checking out.

Will you take the whole engine out or remove the box in parts to make the change ?  what is the name of the company where you are getting the different final drives etc, I may be interested as my gearbox is coming out soon to fit my new flywheel.

Keep up the posting on this, really great to read.

Ben

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Bruce Fielding
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Re: Mk1 Technical / Upgrade Thread

Post by Bruce Fielding » Fri Mar 27, 2009 7:14 am

Someone did get a Rover-powered Atom to a claimed 280bhp. It did explode, though...
Ariel Atom Owners Club founder, based in Central London

The JD

Re: Mk1 Technical / Upgrade Thread

Post by The JD » Fri Mar 27, 2009 9:18 am

Whilst Im on the subject of Karl at Emerald one of the new features which is just breathtaking (pun intended) is the AFR/ADAPTIVE fueling (what?). Basically you have your bog standard Injection Map BUT in addition you have a TARGET AIR/FUEL/RATIO (AFR) map also. The ECU reads the Wideband Lambda and then "seeks" to adjust the fueling so that the Lambda reads the same as your AFR Target. It stores any changes in a 3rd table in order that you can review the changes it made. For example take the Airfilter off and see new adjustments being made. If you so choose the Change-Table can be applied to the static map and so.

Ive attached a pic of the exhaust mod, which lowers the box and moves it out a few mm, plus it dont rattle or vibrate anymore!
Image

Also gearchange mod, the bell crank came off a MGF Trophy and point towards the front of the atom rather than protruding backwards and rubbing on the handbrake cable. M5 bolts welded to the bellcrank and M5 rodends (£6ea) screwed onto the gearchange cables, soooo easy!
Image

Hey Ben Ive heard similar stories and have read a fair amount on the topic. Basically 200bhp seems the limit using CAMs and wot not, Turbo pistons are different with a thicker top above the rings, CR reduced with shorter rods. Ive always wondered about Ceramic coatings, David Vizard mentioned the tech years ago in the mini bible; ultimately its either HEAT or FORCE that breaks things, more revs = more force, more bang = more heat.

The gearbox guy is from near Bolton, just a few miles from where I collected the engine. They are such a nice bunch of people up there, makes us southerners look like a right bunch of arseholes!!

Will come back with links list of suppliers in a wee while.

The JD

Re: Mk1 Technical / Upgrade Thread

Post by The JD » Sun Apr 05, 2009 8:28 pm

WHOOPS!!  :doh:

Increased ign advance a few deg and vvt upto 290 at full throttle 6000rpm onwards.
No problems, fractional pinking from idle too pulling away with light throttle(expected).
Zoooming around no worries; temp below 90deg, head into town, stop for sandwich and fuel (10min stop), pull out of garage into high street conditions ie cruising in 2nd light load and rpm (no pinking).

After 5-10minutes in 3rd light load low rpm, nasty ticky/clunk noises, suspected dropped valve or something clanking around in chamber.

Removed rocker cover, plugs looked fine and equal, turned engine over with socket, inlet cam â??snappingâ?� on 2 followers, then (this is weird) the cam lobs in question (2 of them ie 1 cylinder) stopped rotating completely despite the next cam still rotating (the same end pair!).

Thought something broken in VVC mech unit. Removed to discover everything fine and in place. Looking at the ends of the 2 cams couldnâ??t see how 1 might rotate independently of the other. Unless the cam flanges are friction fitted????

Closer inspection shows the same respective cylinder tappets lower in head (50thou clearance to cam lobes). Suspect equally bent pair of inlet valves.

My assumption is this:
VVC mech locks up internally, piston valve contact, cam slips/freeâ??s up on cam flange as a consequence.
Or
Cam flange slips/freeâ??s up on cam, valve piston contact, cam snaps at low follower, gives up completely once rotated by hand.
(if it were a sticking valve then only 1 would be bent and only 1 follower low).

Thereâ??s no debris or wear marks anywhere, although the inlet cams in question feel awkward to rotate.

If it was a VVC mech lockup why did this arise when at low cam duration.

Anyway, head off time and the opportunity to upgrade exhaust cam and ceramic coat chambers to prepare for turbo.

benyeats

Re: Mk1 Technical / Upgrade Thread

Post by benyeats » Mon Apr 06, 2009 11:16 pm

[quote="The JD"]
Anyway, head off time and the opportunity to upgrade exhaust cam and ceramic coat chambers to prepare for turbo.
[/quote]

Bugger.  I think if I have to take the head off mine I will remove the VVC mech and put hotter fixed cams in its place, keeping to the KISS principal !

Ben

The JD

Re: Mk1 Technical / Upgrade Thread

Post by The JD » Tue Apr 07, 2009 8:42 am

Big old debate that one Ben!
Bhp isnt the be all and end all, torque has a part to play, do you want to sacrifice all your grunt to scream the nuts off at 7.5k? Not forgetting Hot Cams need hot followers, namely the solid variety which require a day to shim! Having said that Im thinking of getting the VVC cams recut to give >10mm lift for a reasonable £200 (and of course hotter exh £80). Add on Dave's DIY solid followers only £60 and you'd have the best of all worlds... Am I on the right track? Or is there a VVC limitation beyound the lifters themselves..?

Conclusion to my engine crisis. The VVC-Inlet CAM "is" slipping on its drive flange!

benyeats

Re: Mk1 Technical / Upgrade Thread

Post by benyeats » Sun Oct 04, 2009 4:56 am

[quote="The JD"]

Indeed, Ben will have to up his game as I took my TURBO K-Series for its maiden voyage today and can say without any hesitation or doubt OMG (Oh My God!) Im running the tallest 5th gear and final drive available for the PG1 and the 160VVC trudged and ran out of puff before the rev limiter at 6500, but the Turbo just blows 5th away as if it was 3rd gear!!! Seriously its like needing to grab for 4th but theres no 6th.

........... ATOM 3 boys whatch out!......................

JD
[/quote]

Funnily enough my engine is coming out in a few weeks for the 5 yearly winter clean up you have me thinking now.....

It is from a R75 right ?

Ben

benyeats

Re: Mk1 Technical / Upgrade Thread

Post by benyeats » Mon Oct 05, 2009 12:48 pm

[quote="benyeats"]
[quote="The JD"]

Indeed, Ben will have to up his game as I took my TURBO K-Series for its maiden voyage today and can say without any hesitation or doubt OMG (Oh My God!) Im running the tallest 5th gear and final drive available for the PG1 and the 160VVC trudged and ran out of puff before the rev limiter at 6500, but the Turbo just blows 5th away as if it was 3rd gear!!! Seriously its like needing to grab for 4th but theres no 6th.

........... ATOM 3 boys whatch out!......................

JD
[/quote]

Funnily enough my engine is coming out in a few weeks for the 5 yearly winter clean up you have me thinking now.....

It is from a R75 right ?

Ben
[/quote]

So what do you gain going for the turbo K-series, it seems to only have 150bhp in standard form

Ben

The JD

Re: Mk1 Technical / Upgrade Thread

Post by The JD » Wed Oct 07, 2009 1:38 pm

150bhp indeed for the R75, whereas the MG-ZT is rated 160. Not sure where the difference is.. with the demise of Rover and the turbo-K being scarce theres little data available. What I do know is the K-Turbo does produce 200lb/ft v 100lb/ft for NA (normally aspirated). Ive noted the TB is the smaller variety but with forced induction it just doesnt matter, I mean the head and valves are stock 1.8L items, no way near VVC/Trophy160 sizes.

Theroy sais (general chatter) you can have as much power (torque) as you wont as long as the engine holds! So, boost, well I tightened the actuator fractionally to take out any wear (+60k donor engine) and with zero PWM (max positive feed back from pressurised induction) was seeing 10-12psi on Emerald logs from the MAP sensor.

So I created 2 additional maps (Emerald has 3 you can switch on the fly from the dash) with 40% PWM bleed signal at 4000rpm map1 and 80% PWM bleed signal map3. Having scared the daylight out of me on map1 ~10psi I briefly tried map2 and decided that I could push the pedal down more than a 3rd! Just to wild.

So yesterday I went for a spin with Dawsey (holding laptop to datalog) and after 2 miles the engine exploded oil and water mixed like custard!! Turns out I was running map3 and the log showed 24psi which is more than a cossy!! Whipped off the head and found much like Wisp but worse debonding of the butyle rubber on the H.Gasket. Indeed mine had completely debonded and suspect this was already considerably underway before I raised the head off the block (with boost I mean!).
Head was in very good nick just standard indentation from flame rings which I believe occurs regardless over time, if it digs in around the hot exhaust side then yer thats overheating and annealing of the ALU.
I have a spare MLS which should work nicely and am sourcing an uprated bottom rail. so should be back on track by the weekend.

wisp

Re: Mk1 Technical / Upgrade Thread

Post by wisp » Tue Oct 13, 2009 9:44 am

[quote="The JD"]
150bhp indeed for the R75, whereas the MG-ZT is rated 160. Not sure where the difference is..
[/quote]

Doesn't a change in head and ECU give more than that? I know the other NZ Atom1 was 180 prior to the motor being swapped for a Honda engine.

benyeats

Re: Mk1 Technical / Upgrade Thread

Post by benyeats » Tue Oct 13, 2009 9:46 am

[quote="wisp"]
[quote="The JD"]
150bhp indeed for the R75, whereas the MG-ZT is rated 160. Not sure where the difference is..
[/quote]

Doesn't a change in head and ECU give more than that? I know the other NZ Atom1 was 180 prior to the motor being swapped for a Honda engine.
[/quote]

Head and throttle bodies would probably give around 180.  180 is about the max I would be happy to take a k-series to and expect it to remain reliable

Ben

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