I agree with Wmcanus...
I bought the Atom because it is a basic, simple car, with an incredible performance envelope...
Its a brilliant piece of engineering and embodies the Keep It Super Simple engineering ethos.
If I had wanted the paddle shifters, and all the computers, I'd have bought a Fezza...
I wanted to really learn good car control and the Atom is perfect for that.
I'm all for every advantage on the track, but more gains (for me) can be obtained by driver training...
To be honest, I'd rather have real problems that I solve through better driving technique, rather than remove the problem with a gadget...
To me, that smacks of the 'fudge' fix...
Try to bear in mind that myself and other people will have different opinions to yours
Everyone has a right to them, but noone deserves to be abused because theirs differs from yours.
How is the build going anyway? Whats left to do?
Atom Clones
-
haymanator
Re: Atom Clones
[quote="Troll-like"]
haymanator read this under the trickshifter 2 section at http://www.trickshifter.com/
"The TrickSHIFTER 2 has been designed as a reliable, easy to fit performance tool that allows smooth full or part throttle up-shifts by using the gear lever only. The shifter will give a typical performance advantage of up to 1 metre distance gain per gear shift compared to conventional gear shifting and allows smooth mid-corner gear shifting without upsetting the bike."
I know it says bike, but the same applies to a bike engined car.
You might also like to know an example of a corner where you might shift "mid-corner" such as coppice (that is the bottom left had corner to you) where it is normally a double apex for cars
As to the words "debate" labeling this discussion, as far as I can see there are quite a few people who think it means attacking anything non-atom.
(And there was me thinking that this was the "non-atom and off topic" forum)
As to understanding cars and driving them, I fully understand setting up a car for a corner by braking, selecting the right gear, using heel and toe to do the braking while blipping the throttle to match the engine rpm relative to the road speed (in a formula ford or formula renault is a must because of the engine spec/compression will slow you down).
In changing gear in a corner like copice (long and unwinding) it may be benificial to change gear while accelerating out. Do it in a most cars, as soon as you lift, you lose grip and you spin, too much throttle you spin. With a trickshifter, the brief engine cut is fast enough to stop this (most of the time).
Another benefit is protection of your engine/gears through missed shifts (which has already been mentioned) as the ignition is cut briefly as you go tho change gear.
It's just a shame that your atom tinted glasses cannot see beyond this and that you close your mind to anything outside that "purist" driving mind of yours.
[/quote]
Aha, so when I wrote â??or you might even be (giggle) confusing downshifts with upshifts (Giggle again) where a quick shifter does create an advantageâ?�, I hit the nail on the head big timeâ?¦.Smug snigger time.
Or could it be even more confused than that - do you understand Heel n Toe as, (dare I say this?) blipping the throttle between upshifts?
Coppice does indeed require a gear change more often than not, indeed in most instances, its just before the exit kerb, so its kind of in the corner - but only just (it isnâ??t a double Apex by the way, those kerbs on the inside after the Apex arenâ??t actually used - thought an ex racing driver would know that).
However that gear change isnâ??t one that involves Downshifting Mid-corner, or Heel n Toeing Mid-Cornerâ?¦ is it TL?
Because thatâ??s the subject being discussed hereâ?¦..So please pay attention to your answers and examples in the future.
Regarding the need for a Quick-shifter - or the Trick-Shifter brand - the one coincidentally, that I was asked to try early in its development on a road bike, so I could consider its car applications. Pete and Mike were well established in the motorcycle racing community with their upshift only system, the downshifter was the new baby.
However, Radical for instance (as we are talking about bike engined cars) didnâ??t originally adopt any form of quick-shifter for their productsâ?¦reason being, you donâ??t actually need to use the clutch, or fully lift off the throttle to upshift in one (as with other bike engine applications)â?¦itâ??s just the faintest of lifts, just enough to take a little bit of the load off the cogsâ?¦a Quick-shifter would improve upon that, but only by mere thousandths of a second.
They have now installed on the SR8, a lever-less, electronic/pneumatic gear shift system, however, thatâ??s for the same reasons as in F1.â?¦as that cars got a huge amount of down force, thus the braking distances are very short. You can of course buy that system to fit onto the lesser models, but thatâ??s a money making exercise for them, not one to satisfy an actual need.
And when dear boy, did I mention Atoms? Youâ??ll find if you actually READ what I WRITE, that I was referring to any car, no matter what engine or gearbox it had.
TL, youâ??ll find the article Iâ??m currently writing for a company web site incredibly useful (hence one of the reasons for sitting here typing, whilst also being distracted by this bloody forum). For itâ??s a Track Day guide, one that also includes a section for novices. Iâ??ll post a link for you when its onlineâ?¦â?¦
Regards John
haymanator read this under the trickshifter 2 section at http://www.trickshifter.com/
"The TrickSHIFTER 2 has been designed as a reliable, easy to fit performance tool that allows smooth full or part throttle up-shifts by using the gear lever only. The shifter will give a typical performance advantage of up to 1 metre distance gain per gear shift compared to conventional gear shifting and allows smooth mid-corner gear shifting without upsetting the bike."
I know it says bike, but the same applies to a bike engined car.
You might also like to know an example of a corner where you might shift "mid-corner" such as coppice (that is the bottom left had corner to you) where it is normally a double apex for cars
As to the words "debate" labeling this discussion, as far as I can see there are quite a few people who think it means attacking anything non-atom.
(And there was me thinking that this was the "non-atom and off topic" forum)
As to understanding cars and driving them, I fully understand setting up a car for a corner by braking, selecting the right gear, using heel and toe to do the braking while blipping the throttle to match the engine rpm relative to the road speed (in a formula ford or formula renault is a must because of the engine spec/compression will slow you down).
In changing gear in a corner like copice (long and unwinding) it may be benificial to change gear while accelerating out. Do it in a most cars, as soon as you lift, you lose grip and you spin, too much throttle you spin. With a trickshifter, the brief engine cut is fast enough to stop this (most of the time).
Another benefit is protection of your engine/gears through missed shifts (which has already been mentioned) as the ignition is cut briefly as you go tho change gear.
It's just a shame that your atom tinted glasses cannot see beyond this and that you close your mind to anything outside that "purist" driving mind of yours.
[/quote]
Aha, so when I wrote â??or you might even be (giggle) confusing downshifts with upshifts (Giggle again) where a quick shifter does create an advantageâ?�, I hit the nail on the head big timeâ?¦.Smug snigger time.
Or could it be even more confused than that - do you understand Heel n Toe as, (dare I say this?) blipping the throttle between upshifts?
Coppice does indeed require a gear change more often than not, indeed in most instances, its just before the exit kerb, so its kind of in the corner - but only just (it isnâ??t a double Apex by the way, those kerbs on the inside after the Apex arenâ??t actually used - thought an ex racing driver would know that).
However that gear change isnâ??t one that involves Downshifting Mid-corner, or Heel n Toeing Mid-Cornerâ?¦ is it TL?
Because thatâ??s the subject being discussed hereâ?¦..So please pay attention to your answers and examples in the future.
Regarding the need for a Quick-shifter - or the Trick-Shifter brand - the one coincidentally, that I was asked to try early in its development on a road bike, so I could consider its car applications. Pete and Mike were well established in the motorcycle racing community with their upshift only system, the downshifter was the new baby.
However, Radical for instance (as we are talking about bike engined cars) didnâ??t originally adopt any form of quick-shifter for their productsâ?¦reason being, you donâ??t actually need to use the clutch, or fully lift off the throttle to upshift in one (as with other bike engine applications)â?¦itâ??s just the faintest of lifts, just enough to take a little bit of the load off the cogsâ?¦a Quick-shifter would improve upon that, but only by mere thousandths of a second.
They have now installed on the SR8, a lever-less, electronic/pneumatic gear shift system, however, thatâ??s for the same reasons as in F1.â?¦as that cars got a huge amount of down force, thus the braking distances are very short. You can of course buy that system to fit onto the lesser models, but thatâ??s a money making exercise for them, not one to satisfy an actual need.
And when dear boy, did I mention Atoms? Youâ??ll find if you actually READ what I WRITE, that I was referring to any car, no matter what engine or gearbox it had.
TL, youâ??ll find the article Iâ??m currently writing for a company web site incredibly useful (hence one of the reasons for sitting here typing, whilst also being distracted by this bloody forum). For itâ??s a Track Day guide, one that also includes a section for novices. Iâ??ll post a link for you when its onlineâ?¦â?¦
Regards John
Last edited by haymanator on Wed Jan 23, 2008 9:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Troll-like
Re: Atom Clones
I have never slated anyones driving on here because I don't know them, so how could I?
That is not the case towards me though!
Maybe the way I say things is not to your driving style, but I can drive non the less.
You mentioned coppice as not a double apex corner, I wasn't suggesting that you use the kerbs.
I do know however, that the corner is preceded by a hill and so the corner is blind to the driver and requires a lot of faith to go in flat out. Effectively though, you do drive it as a double bend and so have two turning points.
Wmcmanus, as to the trickshifter/paddleshifter, it does not change gear for you or decide for you when to change. The car will not become an "automatic".
The paddleshift is cable driven and it means that I change gear and I can feel the change through the paddleshift.
The trickshifter is a sensor placed in the cable system that senses when you change gear and briefy cuts the engine ignition circuit. This enables gearchanges without the use of the clutch. When you are changing gears before entering a corner (say 5th to 3rd etc) a second vacuum controlled device (autoblip) raises the engine revs once the ignition returns. This basically does the same as heel and toe (not the braking part) by ensuring that the engine revs do not slow the car down further and you should be able to re-aply the gas.
All of this just makes the changes easier and a bit faster and also one less thing to do.
That is not the case towards me though!
Maybe the way I say things is not to your driving style, but I can drive non the less.
You mentioned coppice as not a double apex corner, I wasn't suggesting that you use the kerbs.
I do know however, that the corner is preceded by a hill and so the corner is blind to the driver and requires a lot of faith to go in flat out. Effectively though, you do drive it as a double bend and so have two turning points.
Wmcmanus, as to the trickshifter/paddleshifter, it does not change gear for you or decide for you when to change. The car will not become an "automatic".
The paddleshift is cable driven and it means that I change gear and I can feel the change through the paddleshift.
The trickshifter is a sensor placed in the cable system that senses when you change gear and briefy cuts the engine ignition circuit. This enables gearchanges without the use of the clutch. When you are changing gears before entering a corner (say 5th to 3rd etc) a second vacuum controlled device (autoblip) raises the engine revs once the ignition returns. This basically does the same as heel and toe (not the braking part) by ensuring that the engine revs do not slow the car down further and you should be able to re-aply the gas.
All of this just makes the changes easier and a bit faster and also one less thing to do.
Last edited by Troll-like on Wed Jan 23, 2008 6:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Mr.Woolery
Re: Atom Clones
I bet I'd have a grand time on the track with Haymanator as my instructor.
-
sc0tt
Re: Atom Clones
[quote="The Masked Spaz"]
I bet I'd have a grand time on the track with Haymanator as my instructor.
[/quote]
Baggsy i go second!
I bet I'd have a grand time on the track with Haymanator as my instructor.
[/quote]
Baggsy i go second!
Re: Atom Clones
Jeez, this thread is (now) tiresome
-
haymanator
Re: Atom Clones
Dear TL, the fact that Monza and myself have repeated a few times now - YOUR words â??Heel n Toe Mid-Cornerâ?? (and openly laughed at them), is only because, they mean you have no idea what you are talking about (and I think that has eventually sunk in, as you are now choosing to ignore it).
However, that â??no ideaâ??, is now being quantified further by you sayingâ?¦â?¦.
[quote="Troll-like"]
You mentioned coppice as not a double apex corner, I wasn't suggesting that you use the kerbs.
I do know however, that the corner is preceded by a hill and so the corner is blind to the driver and requires a lot of faith to go in flat out. Effectively though, you do drive it as a double bend and so have two turning points.
[/quote]
TL - so you GO IN FLAT OUT at Coppice do you?...A Lot of Faith would indeed be needed to do that, for indeed the entry is a blind crest, but I don't think that's the issue here....Gulp.
Yet whilst you are Flat Out, you're also turning the wheel towards a second turning point too.... I really want to be there when you show me how to take Coppice.....whilst stood a very, very, long way back from the armco and catch fencing.
(Iâ??ve heard some bizarre sh1t in my time, but that one takes the biscuit)
Please, please stop now, youâ??ll be telling us next, that one has to apply the brakes at Starkysâ?¦.or do you?
[quote="The Masked Spaz"]
I bet I'd have a grand time on the track with Haymanator as my instructor.
[/quote]
No you wouldn't....I'm not a Tool
y'know, I wouldn't just let you use me like that....
However, that â??no ideaâ??, is now being quantified further by you sayingâ?¦â?¦.
[quote="Troll-like"]
You mentioned coppice as not a double apex corner, I wasn't suggesting that you use the kerbs.
I do know however, that the corner is preceded by a hill and so the corner is blind to the driver and requires a lot of faith to go in flat out. Effectively though, you do drive it as a double bend and so have two turning points.
[/quote]
TL - so you GO IN FLAT OUT at Coppice do you?...A Lot of Faith would indeed be needed to do that, for indeed the entry is a blind crest, but I don't think that's the issue here....Gulp.
Yet whilst you are Flat Out, you're also turning the wheel towards a second turning point too.... I really want to be there when you show me how to take Coppice.....whilst stood a very, very, long way back from the armco and catch fencing.
(Iâ??ve heard some bizarre sh1t in my time, but that one takes the biscuit)
Please, please stop now, youâ??ll be telling us next, that one has to apply the brakes at Starkysâ?¦.or do you?
[quote="The Masked Spaz"]
I bet I'd have a grand time on the track with Haymanator as my instructor.
[/quote]
No you wouldn't....I'm not a Tool
y'know, I wouldn't just let you use me like that....
Last edited by haymanator on Wed Jan 23, 2008 9:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Troll-like
Re: Atom Clones
Hamanator or masturbator, whatever your name is , you just think that you are just some superior twat
Do you actually read or is someone translating for you?
Brake for the corner, while moving your heel over the throttle, (I actually use the ball of my foot to do both as I have set my pedals up that way) select the correct gear using the gearlever (eg from 5th to 4th relevent to the corner and yes I do need to spell it out for you), blip throttle (raise revs) as you then bring the clutch up, drive through corner using the throttle to control the car.
I drive better than I write, but you can read negative into anything, which is prehaps the only real skill you actually excel at.
Oh and as to the gadget comments and driving properly etc, who are you trying to impress?
If you don't like gadgets, why aren't you just using your legs to walk the circuit?
Isn't the atom a gadget?, why not do the trackday in a polo, if your technique is more important to you?
Do you actually read or is someone translating for you?
Brake for the corner, while moving your heel over the throttle, (I actually use the ball of my foot to do both as I have set my pedals up that way) select the correct gear using the gearlever (eg from 5th to 4th relevent to the corner and yes I do need to spell it out for you), blip throttle (raise revs) as you then bring the clutch up, drive through corner using the throttle to control the car.
I drive better than I write, but you can read negative into anything, which is prehaps the only real skill you actually excel at.
Oh and as to the gadget comments and driving properly etc, who are you trying to impress?
If you don't like gadgets, why aren't you just using your legs to walk the circuit?
Isn't the atom a gadget?, why not do the trackday in a polo, if your technique is more important to you?
Last edited by Troll-like on Wed Jan 23, 2008 10:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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haymanator
Re: Atom Clones
[quote="Troll-like"]
Hamanator or masturbator, whatever your name is , you just think that you are just some superior twat
Do you actually read or is someone translating for you?
Brake for the corner, while moving your heel over the throttle, (I actually use the ball of my foot to do both as I have set my pedals up that way) select the correct gear using the gearlever (eg from 5th to 4th relevent to the corner and yes I do need to spell it out for you), blip throttle (raise revs) as you then bring the clutch up, drive through corner using the throttle to control the car.
I drive better than I write, but you can read negative into anything, which is prehaps the only real skill you actually excel at.
Oh and as to the gadget comments and driving properly etc, who are you trying to impress?
If you don't like gadgets, why aren't you just using your legs to walk the circuit?
Isn't the atom a gadget?, why not do the trackday in a polo, if your technique is more important to you?
[/quote]
Dear TL, very good - very, very good. So you do know what Heel n Toe is (technique - each to their own). However, do I take it then, that you are now retracting your earlier statements regarding its required use Mid-Corner, and that you were indeed spouting utter nonsense? In which case, I will accept that as an apology. Thank you for being so gracious.
Regards John
PS, note lack of anonymity.
"Gadget"
?
After a bit of head scratchingâ?¦Iâ??ve sussed it this morning. You are accusing me of something that Apollyon25 wrote. Re-iterating what has been said before, READ WHAT I WRITEâ?¦then after meaningful consideration, post an answer.
Hamanator or masturbator, whatever your name is , you just think that you are just some superior twat
Do you actually read or is someone translating for you?
Brake for the corner, while moving your heel over the throttle, (I actually use the ball of my foot to do both as I have set my pedals up that way) select the correct gear using the gearlever (eg from 5th to 4th relevent to the corner and yes I do need to spell it out for you), blip throttle (raise revs) as you then bring the clutch up, drive through corner using the throttle to control the car.
I drive better than I write, but you can read negative into anything, which is prehaps the only real skill you actually excel at.
Oh and as to the gadget comments and driving properly etc, who are you trying to impress?
If you don't like gadgets, why aren't you just using your legs to walk the circuit?
Isn't the atom a gadget?, why not do the trackday in a polo, if your technique is more important to you?
[/quote]
Dear TL, very good - very, very good. So you do know what Heel n Toe is (technique - each to their own). However, do I take it then, that you are now retracting your earlier statements regarding its required use Mid-Corner, and that you were indeed spouting utter nonsense? In which case, I will accept that as an apology. Thank you for being so gracious.
Regards John
PS, note lack of anonymity.
"Gadget"
?After a bit of head scratchingâ?¦Iâ??ve sussed it this morning. You are accusing me of something that Apollyon25 wrote. Re-iterating what has been said before, READ WHAT I WRITEâ?¦then after meaningful consideration, post an answer.
Last edited by haymanator on Thu Jan 24, 2008 8:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Bruce Fielding
- Posts: 16320
- Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2005 1:13 pm
- Location: London
- Contact:
Re: Atom Clones
Let's end this simply.
TL, please post links to all the races you've taken part in with your competitive lap times. Then JH (and possible Monza) will do the same...
Didn't think so...
TL, please post links to all the races you've taken part in with your competitive lap times. Then JH (and possible Monza) will do the same...
Didn't think so...
Ariel Atom Owners Club founder, based in Central London
-
Ultrasound
Re: Atom Clones
[quote="Bruce Fielding"]
Let's end this simply.
TL, please post links to all the races you've taken part in with your competitive lap times. Then JH (and possible Monza) will do the same...
Didn't think so...
[/quote]
Tragic as all the 'my atom is too slow I 'm must spend a fortune modifying it' are, the ' I'm an amazing driver, no your not I'm better' ones are the worst. Yawn Yawn.
Let's end this simply.
TL, please post links to all the races you've taken part in with your competitive lap times. Then JH (and possible Monza) will do the same...
Didn't think so...
[/quote]
Tragic as all the 'my atom is too slow I 'm must spend a fortune modifying it' are, the ' I'm an amazing driver, no your not I'm better' ones are the worst. Yawn Yawn.
-
Wmcmanus
Re: Atom Clones
[quote="Troll-like"]
Wmcmanus, as to the trickshifter/paddleshifter, it does not change gear for you or decide for you when to change. The car will not become an "automatic".
The paddleshift is cable driven and it means that I change gear and I can feel the change through the paddleshift.
The trickshifter is a sensor placed in the cable system that senses when you change gear and briefy cuts the engine ignition circuit. This enables gearchanges without the use of the clutch. When you are changing gears before entering a corner (say 5th to 3rd etc) a second vacuum controlled device (autoblip) raises the engine revs once the ignition returns. This basically does the same as heel and toe (not the braking part) by ensuring that the engine revs do not slow the car down further and you should be able to re-aply the gas.
All of this just makes the changes easier and a bit faster and also one less thing to do.
[/quote]
Hey, thanks for the detailed explanation. I had sort of a sense of how it worked, but didn't understand the details. I shouldn't have used the word automatic, or compared this sort of setup to a go kart, because it obviously still requires considerable skill to work the system effectively. At the same time, I think what I said holds true in terms of the "typical" (my word) Atom owner (of which I'm not because of my limited knowledge/skill/interest in performance driving) being interested in getting the most possible performance out of their car as possible, and also being up for the challenge of controlling the car as it was designed (clutch and all). In other words, I don't think this would be a very popular option for the Atom if it were offered by Ariel or Brammo. I don't even think I would have gone for it and the Atom makes me shake in my boots at times! Although it would give me added control, it would take out some of the visceral feel of the driving experience and make me feel as though I was cheating!
Wmcmanus, as to the trickshifter/paddleshifter, it does not change gear for you or decide for you when to change. The car will not become an "automatic".
The paddleshift is cable driven and it means that I change gear and I can feel the change through the paddleshift.
The trickshifter is a sensor placed in the cable system that senses when you change gear and briefy cuts the engine ignition circuit. This enables gearchanges without the use of the clutch. When you are changing gears before entering a corner (say 5th to 3rd etc) a second vacuum controlled device (autoblip) raises the engine revs once the ignition returns. This basically does the same as heel and toe (not the braking part) by ensuring that the engine revs do not slow the car down further and you should be able to re-aply the gas.
All of this just makes the changes easier and a bit faster and also one less thing to do.
[/quote]
Hey, thanks for the detailed explanation. I had sort of a sense of how it worked, but didn't understand the details. I shouldn't have used the word automatic, or compared this sort of setup to a go kart, because it obviously still requires considerable skill to work the system effectively. At the same time, I think what I said holds true in terms of the "typical" (my word) Atom owner (of which I'm not because of my limited knowledge/skill/interest in performance driving) being interested in getting the most possible performance out of their car as possible, and also being up for the challenge of controlling the car as it was designed (clutch and all). In other words, I don't think this would be a very popular option for the Atom if it were offered by Ariel or Brammo. I don't even think I would have gone for it and the Atom makes me shake in my boots at times! Although it would give me added control, it would take out some of the visceral feel of the driving experience and make me feel as though I was cheating!
Last edited by Wmcmanus on Thu Jan 24, 2008 12:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
-
Wmcmanus
Re: Atom Clones
[quote="apollyon25"]
I agree with Wmcanus...[/quote]
You're taking me back to my grammar school days. Whine McAnus!
I agree with Wmcanus...[/quote]
You're taking me back to my grammar school days. Whine McAnus!
-
Karlo
Re: Atom Clones
Wow this is quite the thread. 
Maybe this might be Home for those that are interested in Atom Clones.
www.ExoCars.net
RCR SL-R
Maybe this might be Home for those that are interested in Atom Clones.
www.ExoCars.net
RCR SL-R
-
Troll-like
Re: Atom Clones
As there are a lot of you who think that I don't know anything about trickshifters/driving, here is a quote from a 750mc racer from the locostbuilders forum.
I asked the trickshifter question there because I have not finished my car and cannot "prove" my comments immediately so here goes:
"we are using a electronic flat shift in the clubby race car in the Avatar, with a Quaife sequential box, and yes its great, and has dropped an average of 2 secs a lap on most circuits we run on,
and yes you can upshift mid corner with out unsetling the car, my average change time aproxx 60-70- mill sec and the cut and re ramp on, is so smooth that the car dosnt feel the torque interuption at all, we run a 6 speed with a 1-1 top so i'm constantly changing up just after the apex and it frightens the daylights out of others when you do it on the out side of them.
best dollar yould spend
cheers Kaspa "
I think the "2 second gain per lap" and "midcorner shift" comments say exactly what I said in my first post..........................................
I asked the trickshifter question there because I have not finished my car and cannot "prove" my comments immediately so here goes:
"we are using a electronic flat shift in the clubby race car in the Avatar, with a Quaife sequential box, and yes its great, and has dropped an average of 2 secs a lap on most circuits we run on,
and yes you can upshift mid corner with out unsetling the car, my average change time aproxx 60-70- mill sec and the cut and re ramp on, is so smooth that the car dosnt feel the torque interuption at all, we run a 6 speed with a 1-1 top so i'm constantly changing up just after the apex and it frightens the daylights out of others when you do it on the out side of them.
best dollar yould spend
cheers Kaspa "
I think the "2 second gain per lap" and "midcorner shift" comments say exactly what I said in my first post..........................................
Last edited by Troll-like on Fri Feb 01, 2008 9:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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