Atom Clones

[Alec]

[quote="haymanator"]

The basics are - A lower gear can only be selected once enough speed has been scrubbed offâ?¦.its dictated by the vehicles actual road speed in relation to that gears road speed requirement. It cannot be selected earlier just because its done electronically.

[/quote]

I'm not sure that's completely accurate as I remember accidentally finding 2nd instead of 4th at Bedford last time I was there.

I definitely hadn't scrubbed off enough speed beforehand.

Pre-Andy Walsh Car Control Course I would have certainly spun off but as it was Post-Andy Walsh I realised that it had been money well spent and I was pleased with myself for catching it.

Not sure if electronics would have prevented that from happening, or helped afterwards, but the small amount of tuition I had certainly did.

[NathanE]

Alec, Rather than saying a lower gear can only be selected, I think that John probably meant that it should only be selected.

Of course you can force the car into too low a gear, but I think the implications are either that the engine manages to survive the strain on it and effectively locks the rear wheels causing a slide or spin or that you blow the engine up 

I'm sure that John will correct me if I'm wrong 

Nice to have you back by the way John, I've missed the "clarity" of your posts 

[Troll-like]

haymanator  read this under the trickshifter 2 section at http://www.trickshifter.com/

"The TrickSHIFTER 2 has been designed as a reliable, easy to fit performance tool that allows smooth full or part throttle up-shifts by using the gear lever only. The shifter will give a typical performance advantage of up to 1 metre distance gain per gear shift compared to conventional gear shifting and allows smooth mid-corner gear shifting without upsetting the bike."

I know it says bike, but the same applies to a bike engined car.

You might also like to know an example of a corner where you might shift "mid-corner" such as coppice (that is the bottom left had corner to you) where it is normally a double apex for cars


As to the words "debate" labeling this discussion, as far as I can see there are quite a few people who think it means attacking anything non-atom.
(And there was me thinking that this was the "non-atom and off topic" forum)


As to understanding cars and driving them, I fully understand setting up a car for a corner by braking, selecting the right gear, using heel and toe to do the braking while blipping the throttle to match the engine rpm relative to the road speed (in a formula ford or formula renault is a must because of the engine spec/compression will slow you down).
In changing gear in a corner like copice (long and unwinding) it may be benificial to change gear while accelerating out. Do it in a most cars, as soon as you lift, you lose grip and you spin, too much throttle you spin. With a trickshifter, the brief engine cut is fast enough to stop this (most of the time).
Another benefit is protection of your engine/gears through missed shifts (which has already been mentioned) as the ignition is cut briefly as you go tho change gear.
It's just a shame that your atom tinted glasses cannot see beyond this and that you close your mind to anything outside that "purist" driving mind of yours.

[Monza]

The first right corner is a real corner for a car, but not the long "second" one (before the straight) which will be flat out (i think that in an Atom 300, the first part is in 3 gear and after it'll be flat out to 4 and +).
But , on a bike, the second part is a real corner with the rear wheel wanted to slide, perhaps your system can help on a bike on which the rear stability is much more easy to alter than on a car.
Concerning the system, they say gain "up to 1m", of course, they will not say "most of the time 15 cm"  because no-one will buy it ! And what you (and they) name "mid-corner" is in fact the third/last part of a corner (during acceleration).
You have to know that with a real Atom (have you driven one fast on a track ?), the "problem" of gear change during this third part of a corner (before the straight line) doesn't exist or in very very exceptionnal cases. Why ? very simple : if you are obliged to change gear during this third part, it's because you were on a wrong gear and you should have selected the higher gear, the torque, in particular with a 300, will in every case be enought to give you the same acceleration with, eventualy, a better spinning control.

[Atom120]

[quote="Troll-like"]
In changing gear in a corner like copice (long and unwinding) it may be benificial to change gear while accelerating out. Do it in a most cars, as soon as you lift, you lose grip and you spin, too much throttle you spin. With a trickshifter, the brief engine cut is fast enough to stop this (most of the time).
[/quote]

Ummm - I'm going to have to pick you up on the Coppice example.

Its a tricky corner, but in a car without aero, if you're on the throttle and needing to change gear while still heavily loaded up, then you were in the wrong gear at the apex. I'm no expert, but I've raced there, and done trackdays in a couple of cars, including an Atom 300 - and even with that power/weight of the 300, you're not accelerating away from the apex anywhere near fast enough to need to change gear while still cornering.

Things may be different in a car with huge aero and a huge power/weight - but in a small bike engined car with limited aero, you really, really aren't going to want to be changing gear while still cornering at Coppice.

[Atom120]

Just to say, I do get your point - and I have experienced the need to change gear coming out of Coppice - on a bike - but that's entirely down to me not being good enough on a bike to take Coppice at anything anywhere near the correct speed or line! Plus, I can't think of any other corners in the UK like it!

[Monza]

Atom120 : in fact Troll-like can change gear with no risk after apex, he'll have "no" torque !
Troll-like : "Protection of the engine" : perhaps if you move gear-level in the good direction, in other case .... BOUM

[Troll-like]

Have you Never missed a shift Monza?

What never?

If most of you were to be honest, I bet you would buy a paddleshift, clutchless sequential geared option on your atom if they offered one?

[NathanE]

[quote="Troll-like"]

If most of you were to be honest, I bet you would buy a paddleshift, clutchless sequential geared option on your atom if they offered one?

[/quote]

I thought about it, but decided against for two reasons,

firstly, if I wanted mindless performance there are a bunch of other cars that I could have bought with the computing power of a space shuttle to get me round tracks with no requirement for any skill of my own.  Actually I like the fact that the Atom is compromised in several respects, requiring real skill to drive well (which i don't - but am getting better!).

Secondly, sequential clutchless shifts are great on circuit, and yes, i too have used them in clio cup race cars and jaguar engined radical type things, but come to driving around town with one (which I guess I haven't) and I suspect they'd be horrible and clunky.  I do use my atom for pottering around as well as full on driving and the hassle of the sq box would be too great for me

By the way I have by the way experienced lift off oversteer whilst changing up in the Atom once, so I do know what you are meaning, but to be honest you get back on the power so quickly after an upshift that it is almost instantly brought back into balance. 

[Monza]

miss a shift on a track ? less than one/trackday, most of case going to neutral instead of third during huge braking.
Paddle shift + .... etc, yes i agree with you , i would buy it, but not because of the risk of bad gear selection with a classic gearbox, but because i'm sure we can win time a little more during braking beeing only concentrate only on it.
Last july , i drove an "old" F1 V8 3.5L on HTTT/Castellet track in France, it has an adapted pneumatic paddle gearshift (because not on the original car), what a pleasure AND a necessity because of Carbon discs with real incredible braking capacities (much more impressed by this than by the power ...), so that you don't have time to change gear manualy (from 250Km/h to 60 in less than 100m you even just have the time to press 4 times the paddle shift to decrease from 6 to 2 !) and this with about 80Kg of violent pressure on the brake pedal before decreasing pressure.

[Troll-like]

The option would be a choice of course, with a clutch pedal for those stuck in town moments.
I still have a clutch pedal on my car to do the changes manually and the trickshifter for trackdays.
Thanks for agreeing on the oversteer on a gearchange in a corner by the way, but imagine a car the same as yours but with the extra ability to change gear without oversteer. Wouldn't this make for a faster lap?
That is pretty much what I am getting at.

Monza, I didn't go for the protection benefits of it, it is just an aside. The real reason is accelerating faster and the ability to shift midcorner and perhaps save myself from an accident/spin.

[Monza]

i don't remember where you are located Troll-like but if you are not to far away, i'll bring my Atom during one of your next trackday when you car will on the top of its capacities.

[Troll-like]

[quote="Monza"]
i don't remember where you are located Troll-like but if you are not to far away, i'll bring my Atom during one of your next trackday when you car will on the top of its capacities.
[/quote]

I expect short circuits like mallory, brands indy or lyden hill will be more beneficial to my car, but long circuits will benefit yours.
Don't hold your breath as I am at least a year from getting my car road-worthy and sva'd

[Hedge]

Jeeeeeezus.

How bored are you (lot)?

Get a grip.

[Wmcmanus]

[quote="Troll-like"]
Have you Never missed a shift Monza?

What never?

If most of you were to be honest, I bet you would buy a paddleshift, clutchless sequential geared option on your atom if they offered one?

[/quote]

To be honest, I probably would.  But I think I'm definitely an exception in this regard, and I also think that I'd regret it a couple of years down the line.  For my extremely novice skill level at present, it would make me a lot more comfortable.  Then again, I've yet to do a track day and may not for a long time.  I've never taken a performance driving course either.  So I've got absolutely nothing to be "proud" of, based either on my skill level (very poor), experience level (practically zero), or even my basic inclination (no real desire to be a race car driver).

Given all of this, I really do think I'm quite the exception in this regard.  As much fun as I have with my Atom, it sometimes scares the crap out of me since I know so little about how best to drive it.  Most other Atom owners are much more enthusiastic about getting the most performance they possibly can from their car, and they're much more knowledgeable in all sorts of "motorhead" ways. 

To dismiss the skill level and enthusiasm for performance driving of "most" Atom owners on a wholesale basis, is, I think, a mistake.  (I don't know, maybe that wasn't you intention, but that's the way it come off to me.)  Despite the fact that you're not generally a happy camper here and that you've felt insulted at times and believe you should have been more warmly welcomed, I find it hard to imagine that you would think that the average Atom owner would prefer that the car essentially shift itself.  I could be wrong, but that's not the read I'm getting from this crowd. 

In fact, as I think about it, I don't even think that I'd go for that option.  As poor as my skill level is, I don't really want to be driving a glorified go kart.  Take away the clutch and you take away a lot of what I can learn from owning an Atom (heel/toe, left foot braking, etc).  Not that I'm there now, but it's something I look forward to growing into.