German Grand Prix

[AtomFun]

Ferrari Fix
Liars, cheats & fraudsters.

This makes a mockery of the word SPORT

[Bruce Fielding]

...so you had money on a Massa win, then?

John, I know you're not that naiive.

It's the rule that's stupid, not the action.

Every single team would do the same. But it's a red car - again - so that makes it worse...

[AtomFun]

Oh, so that makes it okay then - the rule is stupid so it's okay to ignore it!

Explain that to the people who did place a bid http://sports.williamhill.com/bet/en-gb ... nship.html

Utter farce.

[benyeats]

That was a boring race and Ferrari's behaviour was far from impressive.

Shame it has been a great season thus far.

[Steve]

[quote="Bruce Fielding"]
...so you had money on a Massa win, then?

John, I know you're not that naiive.

It's the rule that's stupid, not the action.

Every single team would do the same. But it's a red car - again - so that makes it worse...
[/quote]
No point having a rule if you don't enforce it.

Spectators were robbed of a race they had paid to see.

Think Ferrari should be penalised by losing their constructor points for the race and having a three race suspended ban for any hint of a repeat - and a public apology to Massa.

Have lost my respect for Alonso.

[Steve Gibson]

At the end of the day, Alonso didn't fight for that win or drive for it, he was handed it. Whether or not he has the greater chance of catching the top three and their point scores, today he hasn't advanced by skill, daring or talent. That's a great shame, particularly when the point gap between 1st and 2nd is so large.

[wasp]

[quote="Bruce Fielding"]
...so you had money on a Massa win, then?

It's the rule that's stupid, not the action.
[/quote]

Agreed

[quote="Bruce Fielding"]

Every single team would do the same. But it's a red car - again - so that makes it worse...
[/quote]

Can't agree there, both Red Bull & Mclaren have had wheel banging this year. Also, it does rather always seem to be the red cars. Spoilt a potentially good battle for the lead too.

Cheers,

Stu

[AtomMadStew]

didnt see the race but wasnt the "no team orders" rule introduced if my memory serves me right because ferrari did this in the first instance!    will they never learn.
that spring hitting Massas head must have done more damage than we first thought.   

[Bruce Fielding]

Two words

Peter Collins...

(not mentioned on TV, incidentally... but should have been)

T'was ever thus.

[atomathics]

[quote="Bruce Fielding"]
Two words

Peter Collins...

[/quote]


mmmm just say the word – ohhhh!!

[PaulP]

Steve,

You've lost your respect for Alonso?????

What the grassing up of his team when at McLaren; taking the win when his team mate was asked to crash on purpose with no remorse and it takes this for you to lose your respect for him?

It would appear most great drivers are also willing to cheat if it helps; Schumacher and Senna, for example.

[Trigger]

Team orders are a function of the sport. But mid race team orders to let somebody win who wouldnt have otherwise is wrong - by today's laws. When there was no rule Ferrari was fined usd1.0 million.....8 years on with a rule there to break they are fined usd100k.....so does the rule stand or what ?

Ferrari get it easy - if this was McLaren there would have been disqualifications, and points dropped.

Team orders are as I say part of the sport of course, but then again, Massa isnt exactly out of the running - with so many points on offer the second you dont finish a race you lose alot of ground. At this stage in the season there is no need for it. Later on the supposed driver no 2 can be told 'if driver 1 is behind make sure he gets by without too much difficulty'.

T

[AtomFun]

When Hamilton & and his team principals were found guilty of lying to the FIA a few years back, they were smacked with a massive fine and demoted down the pit lane - and justly so. I can't remember the full details, but it was something along those lines.

My understanding is that the maximum fine the Stewards can make is $100,000. By virtue of the fact that Ferrari have been fined the maximum, isn't it implicit that not only did the drivers lie but the team principals did too?

[dp35]

[quote="Steve Gibson"]
At the end of the day, Alonso didn't fight for that win or drive for it, he was handed it. Whether or not he has the greater chance of catching the top three and their point scores, today he hasn't advanced by skill, daring or talent. [/quote]

Sorry have to disagree here.  The team encouraged Massa to hold or extend his gap to Alonso, which he could not do.  Alonso was clearly faster - which can be attributed to his skill, daring, talent, etc.  Whether he was faster enough to execute the pass is something I too would've liked to have seen.  But with Vettel catching up, the team was wise to ask Massa to let Alonso pass, rather than deal with it the way Red Bull did a few races back.  Although letting them fight for the win would be much more entertaining for us, IMO it wouldn't likely happen anyways.  Massa made it obvious so the world would know.  But in the following laps Alonso showed once and for all who was the faster red car.

[wasp]

[quote="dp35"]
[quote="Steve Gibson"]
At the end of the day, Alonso didn't fight for that win or drive for it, he was handed it. Whether or not he has the greater chance of catching the top three and their point scores, today he hasn't advanced by skill, daring or talent. [/quote]

Sorry have to disagree here.  The team encouraged Massa to hold or extend his gap to Alonso, which he could not do.  Alonso was clearly faster - which can be attributed to his skill, daring, talent, etc.  Whether he was faster enough to execute the pass is something I too would've liked to have seen.  But with Vettel catching up, the team was wise to ask Massa to let Alonso pass, rather than deal with it the way Red Bull did a few races back.  Although letting them fight for the win would be much more entertaining for us, IMO it wouldn't likely happen anyways.  Massa made it obvious so the world would know.  But in the following laps Alonso showed once and for all who was the faster red car.
[/quote]

Don't shoot me down in flames here but I believe that Massa was beginning to pull away from Alonso prior to Vettel posing any threat at all. Also, Massa's fastest lap was within a tenth of Alonso.
I get that Alonso is a better driver who stands a better chance in the Championship overall but the point here is that the rules are written in such a way as to prevent this happening and that is the important difference between anow and what has happened in the past. It was very recently (double diffuser) that Ferrari were complaining about other teams not acting within the spirit of the rules and threatening to quit if that situation was not resolved. FOTA have gone a long way to calm those waters but Ferrari's actions certainly don't comply to the spirit and most feel that they have broken the actual rules too.
F1 is a team sport and teams should be allowed to do what they want but they are not and therefore everyone should comply to the current regulations. Fans were robbed of a great end to the race, the bookies can't be too pleased and how Massa motivates himself now I have no idea!

Still only 6 days 'til we find out

Cheers,

Stu