Brake Stuff

[nickpoore]

By brakes have started squeaking at random times.
Brake performance does not appear to be affected.

Currently I have the Track/Wilwood brakes + parking brake.

I took a look at the pads, and they are well within their wear limit.
I took a look at the rotors, and they do not appear scored, and do not appear to be scortched.
I have about 10,000 miles on the car with about 10 track days (yeah, not enough track time.)

I'm thinking I have four options here.

1. Ignore it.
Perhaps it will go away.

2. Replace the pads all around.
(Wilwood 150-9413K)
This is a cheap solution, as pads are about $110 for a complete set.  (Got to love the cheap Wilwoood pads.)
I may or may not have the rotors turned at this point, but not sure if I can do this with slotted rotors.

3. Repalce the pads & rotors all around.
This is still not very expensive, although I have some questions regarding rotors.
See my rotors section below.

4. Upgrade to Alcons.
Yeah, I'm probably not going to go this route, but...
I would still need to change out the rotors - but they use the same rotors as the Wilwood.
I would need to purchase new calipers (Alcon CAR3653D01ASLL & CAR3653D01ASRL)
I'm not sure what mounting brackets I'd need.
I'm also concerned about my front wheels, I have the 5-spoke wheels, and I'm not sure that they clear the Alcons.
I don't think that the rear wheels whould have a problem, as they're 16", but not too sure on this.
I don't know if I would need to do all 4 wheels, or just the front ones.

Rotors.
Acording to the Brammo User Manual, the rotors in use are : Wilwood 160-5840 (right & left) - $90 each.
However when looking to purchase these, they do not appear to be drilled/slotted.

I've seen posts on an alternate rotor, the Wilwood 160-7099 & 160-7100 - $150 each.

I seem to remember that Brammo would manually drill the rotors, but have heard that TMI no longer do this.
So it would appear that the 160-7099/7100 rotors are the way to go.
I've heard that Terry has used these with no issues.


Alcons.
Acording to the Brammo user manual, they Alcons are 4-piston 34.9mm calipers.
(Alcon CAR3653D01ASLL & CAR3653D01ASRL)
However, when I search the Alcon website, I cannot seem to find this caliper, and I cant find anyone selling it.
I don't know if this is only available through TMI, and I also don't know what adapter brackets I need from TMI in order to install it.


Hmm, decisions, decision...

[Heywood-Yablowme]

If you think your brakes are noisy now...wait till you swap to Alcons   I just put a set of Carbotech pads on my car and it screams bloody murder when you apply the brakes. Very visceral.   I suppose I could do without the noise but not at the expense of the stopping power.

Don't worry about drilled/slotted. That stuff is all BS.  I think Brammo slotted their rotors or something.

I would consider the noise part of the character of your Atom.  I do.  It's pretty cool when the GT3's make the same noise...

[dp35]

My Alcons squeak sometimes, but not always.  It seems like after a nice thrashing at the track, they're quiet for a while.  I think that's because when they get hot, a small amount of melted pad material remains on the rotor.  This is the theory behind "bedding in" brake pads, and I think has something to do with the squeaking.  If your pads were never properly bedded that could be the problem, and its never too late to bed the pads to the rotors. 

About the Alcon calipers - I noticed that the pro Star Mazda cars use what LOOK like the exact same calipers, as seen here:
http://www.starmazda.peachhost.com/ct_CGbrakes-pfm.htm

I thought I read somewhere that the Atoms with Wilwood brakes use the same rotors as the Alcons, only the calipers are different.

[nickpoore]

[quote="dp35"]
I thought I read somewhere that the Atoms with Wilwood brakes use the same rotors as the Alcons, only the calipers are different.
[/quote]

Yep, the Brammo manual has them as the same part number.

Just need to figure out what the cost is on the Alcons to see if I want to go that route...

The Wilwood pads are $55 a pair.
The Wilwood rotors are $85 for the original ones (which Brammo added slots to), or $140 for the Wilwood ones with slots in them from the factory.

If I upgrade to the Alcons, then I save $55, but spend ~$1000 on a pair of calipers...
I would have to purchase the rotors either way.
The question is if I would need to replace my front wheels - which would add to the cost as I would need to replace two sets...

Does anyone know if I can use the same master cylinder with the Alcons as I already have for the Wilwoods?

[bolus]

You are not gaining anything going to the Alcons except cost.  The pagid alcon pads are like $120 each pad and then getting the calipers and mounting hardware is going to run you about $5000 + needing new master cylinders.    I doubt you'd notice any difference in braking and you are going to get more squeaking

How about just getting some plastilube (or other antisqueal grease) and put it on the back of the pad?

[nickpoore]

[quote="bolus"]
You are not gaining anything going to the Alcons except cost.  The pagid alcon pads are like $120 each pad and then getting the calipers and mounting hardware is going to run you about $5000 + needing new master cylinders.     I doubt you'd notice any difference in braking and you are going to get more squeaking

How about just getting some plastilube (or other antisqueal grease) and put it on the back of the pad?
[/quote]

FINE!

But I'm not gonna clean them.

[bolus]

You should hear my alcons.  once they get hot on the track they start letting off this piercing squeal like a pig in heat when breaking hard.  At least it tells me when they are fully warmed up.  Almost every stop light they sounds like an old jalopy

[Terry Kennedy]

[quote="Nicholas"]
4. Upgrade to Alcons.
Yeah, I'm probably not going to go this route, but...
I would still need to change out the rotors - but they use the same rotors as the Wilwood.
I would need to purchase new calipers (Alcon CAR3653D01ASLL & CAR3653D01ASRL)
I'm not sure what mounting brackets I'd need.
I'm also concerned about my front wheels, I have the 5-spoke wheels, and I'm not sure that they clear the Alcons.
I don't think that the rear wheels whould have a problem, as they're 16", but not too sure on this.
I don't know if I would need to do all 4 wheels, or just the front ones.

Alcons.
Acording to the Brammo user manual, they Alcons are 4-piston 34.9mm calipers.
(Alcon CAR3653D01ASLL & CAR3653D01ASRL)
However, when I search the Alcon website, I cannot seem to find this caliper, and I cant find anyone selling it.
I don't know if this is only available through TMI, and I also don't know what adapter brackets I need from TMI in order to install it.
[/quote]

The Alcon calipers are in a sort of limbo where they are a valid part and there's even an Alcon engineering drawing for them, but they're not a stocked item (built to order). I tried to get pricing on them from HRP (they're a major Alcon distributor) but they sent me to TMI (actually, they sent TMI to me ). TMI tells me that the price Brammo was charging per caliper was less than what Alcon was charging Brammo. The price from Brammo was $369.38 with a listed cost of $263.84.

Engineering drawing
Alcon numbering scheme

For the rears, you will also need new rotor hats, AA-UP-60 at $130 each from TMI (Brammo was $91, but see above). The mounting hardware is $9/wheel from TMI or you can source it locally.

You'll need new brackets for your uprights, or get new uprights (which include brackets) from Tom or DP.

I believe the only wheels that clear 4-pot Alcons are the Team Dynamics 12-spoke.

[Terry Kennedy]

[quote="Nicholas"]
Does anyone know if I can use the same master cylinder with the Alcons as I already have for the Wilwoods?
[/quote]

Brammo spec was .700 front, .700 rear. You'd have to see what you have on there now, and whether the front and rear are the same sizes.

[Heywood-Yablowme]

Keizer will make you a wheel with no spacers that will clear the Alcons.Correct backspacing and super light. Not really a rim for rough roads,though..

[positron]

My Alcons started squealing like a stuck pig. They had very little wear on the pads and rotors. My guess is that I'm too easy on the brakes and they glazed. I replaced with the 4-2-1's from Shinoo, which are a cooler range pad. They dust more which is fine for me because they are wearing..

After one weekend event at Infineon I've shown an increase in max forward G's. We'll see at Laguna Seca, which is typically hard on brakes, in a couple weeks with new rotors and professional grade rotor to hat hardware.

[Terry Kennedy]

You are not gaining anything going to the Alcons except cost.  The pagid alcon pads are like $120 each pad and then getting the calipers and mounting hardware is going to run you about $5000 + needing new master cylinders.     I doubt you'd notice any difference in braking and you are going to get more squeaking

The Alcon pads aren't that expensive. The 4-2-1 pads (which seems to be what most people prefer) were $195 for a complete axle set (4 pads, does both rear calipers or both front calipers) with the club discount. That's nowhere close to $480 (120 per pad).

For someone with the Wilwood (track) brake package, I'd just suggest new rotors and pads if some anti-squeal doesn't do the trick. You can't put slotted or drilled rotors on a brake lathe (well, you can, but then you need a new brake lathe ) so turning them is out of the question. I agree with TMI that after-the-fact slotting of the rotors like Brammo did is not a good idea - when you buy factory-slotted ones from Wilwood, the slotting is done before the rotor is heat treated. The slotted rotors on TMI Atom 3's come that way from the manufacturer).

I switched to 4-pot Alcons on the back because I had a very early version of the Brammo "race" package which had 4-pots on the front and 2-pots on the rear. Both of those calipers used custom brake pads (though the 4-pot version is now a stock Pagid size, thanks to HRP working with me on the group buy). I didn't think it would make a lot of sense to try to source two different size custom pads, so I decided to switch out the rear calipers to have my car be like later-production race package Atoms.

Of course, that opened a huge can of worms as I wound up not using anything I bought from Brammo except for the calipers themselves. For others with the old-style race package with 2-pot Alcons, I wouldn't suggest upgrading unless it was done as part of an upright upgrade from Tom or DP - in that case, all you'll need will be the new calipers and race hats from TMI - everything else for the rear of the car will be included as part of the new uprights. That just leaves the master cylinders - as I said in an earlier post, Brammo spec was .700 / .700. The early race package cars were built with various size master cylinders - most likely one 5/8 and one .700. [As a side note, I'm adding brake bias measurement to my Microdash - it will display the front/rear pressure ratio by directly measuring pressure in the brake lines. This will make adjusting the bias a breeze - just "set to a reading of X" instead of "hmmm - did I turn it 3 or 4 turns to the left?".]

How about just getting some plastilube (or other antisqueal grease) and put it on the back of the pad?

That's an excellent idea. For the BMW, I have a small jar of some "yellow mystery goop" that stops squealing dead in its tracks.

[bolus]

sorry, i meant per wheel not per pad and was using shinoo's price

yeah, plastilube tube at a BMW dealer is probably less than $5.  I think I might go pick some up

[nickpoore]

I picked up some "convenience packets" for $1.19 at the local auto store.

I'll dismantle everything tomorrow to see how they do.

Just to confirm: We put the grease between the caliper and the pad, NOT on the pad/rotor surface.

Thanks.

[bolus]

OH GOD YES, please dont put any on the rotor.  Put a little on the edge of the pistons that contacts the back of the pad