Harrop HTV 1320-LSJ replacement supercharger info

[bolus]

let me know, I'm definitely thinking twin charging with this puppy

[Heywood-Yablowme]

Shinoo,are you contemplating offering a complete kit using this blower? Blower,Injectors,harness,tune etc? I'll bet quite a few Ecotec owners would be interested.

[shinoo]

Yes, the kit will be complete.  Power potential is significant but we will tune for reliability.

[joelcool]

I'm in! More HP is always better 

[bolus]

[quote="joelcool"]
I'm in! More HP is always better 
[/quote]

turbo 

[silver]

[quote="shinoo"]
Yes, the kit will be complete.  Power potential is significant but we will tune for reliability.
[/quote]

just curious since the 2nd ring landing is capped at 300hp.....are we to assume that meant 300hp at the flywheel....somewhat calculating to 255whp.  If that's the case, you'd need to tune to that as a max whp to remain safe....................and that being said,the existing setup can already make 255whp, so what's the point of changing superchargers....unless you're going to improve the ring landing on #2?

Just curious if this has already been answered, or if I am not understanding the stock internal max hp ratings?

[dial911]

[quote="silver"]
[quote="shinoo"]
Yes, the kit will be complete.  Power potential is significant but we will tune for reliability.
[/quote]

just curious since the 2nd ring landing is capped at 300hp
[/quote]

Can you elaborate (in English) about this ring limitation? Thx

[silver]

Darth can probably do a better job............BUT

a while back the sheet from GM was posted to show the maximum capability of all the internal parts of our ecotec motor.......the one item that can't handle more then 300hp was the ring landing on piston #2.... I'm not sure if the rings have to be replaced with better ones, or if the pistons have to also be replaced W/ new rings in order to be safe above 300hp.

Soooo with that my thoughts are that if you go above 255whp or 300flywheel hp (asuming those 2 are equal) you are actually in danger of blowing your stock internals.

If you want more then that I guess the safest thing to do would be to replace the pistons and rings..(or just rings if that's whats necessary)....which is what Darth has done to his.

[DarthChicken]

GM has stated that the maximum reliable horsepower out of the ecotec is 310hp.  They were looking to see where the weak points were when they were buiding up the ecotec for the drag race program they have.

Add nitrous until something breaks.  Upgrade it.  Add more nitrous.  Etc.

That said... I was at 263whp with the 2.9" pulley and a basically untuned top end.  Then I went to a 2.8" pulley, and tuned the car.  So thats somewhere around 280whp or so.. or, with a 14% drivetrain loss, about 325 block horsepower.

When I pulled my pistons, which did 2 days at Atom West (not tuned to that level but close to it) plus many street miles running at that level, I found no cracked ring landings or rings.  The pistons as a matter of fact look REALLY good.  Here is a picture of piston #4, which is generally the first one to let go in these engines.  I've turned the rings so you can see the edges a little better

[img width=800 height=600]http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh12 ... 0012-1.jpg[/img]

Not all power upgrades are equal.  Nitrous is a pretty nasty way to get there.  Turbocharged engines can't be run as lean as supercharged.  The state of your tune is important.  Controlling EGTs is important.  Shinoo knows all this, and I'm sure will come up with a mild tune that will get you more power.  But if you want to maximize that supercharger, you'll want to upgrade to forged pistons, ARP rods, and a cometic head gasket (which is something I've heard lets loose on these engines as well at higher boost, which this supercharger does with the default pulley).  And while you're at it,  might as well do valve springs and a balance shaft delete kit.   8)

[silver]

so for anyone reading.........take what I said and replace my information with the more accurate info from Darth...

such as it's piston 4 not 2 as I stated
and its rated for up to 310hp not 300hp

[bolus]

it is all theorhetical and there are definitely cobalts out there running crazy hp on stock internals and are doing well so far (like 420 WHP crazy).

So depending on how much you push this supercharger, you increase the risk of damaging an internal in the process.  

So one way to think about it is add the supercharger and then if something breaks fix it.  The other way is to upgrade the internals and spend the money up front and not worry about it.  The difference is that you might spend the money or you are definitely going to spend the money.  :)

The way to make it safer is the usual things:
intercooler upgrade, water injection, return style fuel system, safe tune

There are people talking about 350WHP with this supercharger but I've not seen numbers yet to prove that.  But if you could get to 400 crank HP, you wont want to do it on stock internals for very long. 

[joelcool]

[quote="bolus"]
it is all theorhetical and there are definitely cobalts out there running crazy hp on stock internals and are doing well so far (like 420 WHP crazy).

So depending on how much you push this supercharger, you increase the risk of damaging an internal in the process.  

So one way to think about it is add the supercharger and then if something breaks fix it.  The other way is to upgrade the internals and spend the money up front and not worry about it.  The difference is that you might spend the money or you are definitely going to spend the money.  :)

The way to make it safer is the usual things:
intercooler upgrade, water injection, return style fuel system, safe tune

There are people talking about 350WHP with this supercharger but I've not seen numbers yet to prove that.  But if you could get to 400 crank HP, you wont want to do it on stock internals for very long. 


[/quote]

I've melted a couple of pistons on my GTS before...and trust me...it's cheaper to replace then repair. When the engine goes boom! it will always do damge to surrounding parts along with the extra time it take cleaning all of the metal shaving out of every little hole they can fit into! Oh, and if you don't clean it perfectly, the shaving may cause an an oil blockage and guess what, time to rebuild...again. For example, I had to resleeve my engine due to the damge from the pistons coming apart...something you wouldn't have to do if you replaced/upgraded the internal now!

[bolus]

The nice thing though is that it is only $3000 for a brand new engine ($1500 used).  Since I was quoted $1000 to add sleeves, it might be cheeper just to keep a pile of used engines in the garage

[dial911]

Sorry for the thread jack

Can someone explain the how and why of water injection? I understand it cools the incoming air charge to produce more HP but what are the numbers (HP gains and heat soak)? Do you manually activate the injector or is it automated based on temperatures? Can you bypass /turn off the system? How often do you fill the reservoir? Can you use methanol or a blend?

I was talking to Tom S about this and thinking about doing it but want more info.

Thx

[bolus]

By itself water or meth only offer cooling.  A giant intercooler will do the same thing though water is most efficient in cooling 99% of the time.  On the Atom where you cant add a giant intercooler it is an excellent cooling solution.

So by itself that is the only benefit.  But the more cooling, the longer your car will stay at its peak HP as everything heats up.  On our cars, you loose power without it. 

When you use meth or a blend of meth and water, it effectively increases the octane.  So it is like having race gas.  If you dont tune for it, it does nothing,  but if you tune for it you can get some power gains. 

So with Darth, he tuned, used only water, and got a smaller pulley and gained 50 HP.  That just whows you how much cooling is important in our cars.  So if he used methanol, he could get some more power. 

Every kit is a little different, mine triggers at a certain injector duty cycle and others inject at a certain boost.  Which is nice, it is like getting race gas, only when you need it   My kit has a power button to turn it on.  I use the side tank Tom made and it has a cap on the top to fill it up.  My kit has a low water light and a gauge on the side of the tank.    I leave it off when street driving and I only have water in the tank at this point.