Brake honesty

wisp

Re: Brake honesty

Post by wisp » Tue Aug 29, 2006 12:31 pm

[quote="Driver"]
I think the answer will ultimately be a really soft compound for street driving ................
[/quote]

I don't quite understand that bit of advice.
Does it not depend on the road use? Length of journeys and type of terrain?

Forgetting what you drive, I have always noticed that a it's after youv'e been on the road a while (everythings up to temperature) that the problems start.
You hit some winding road through hills and once you can smell  :-\ the brakes the down hill corners become quite exciting. :o

Jacob Potts

Re: Brake honesty

Post by Jacob Potts » Tue Aug 29, 2006 5:19 pm

[quote="Bruce Fielding"]STEP ONE: Comfort first. Park the car in a cool, shady spot.

STEP TWO: Now safety. Block the rear wheels so the car won't roll once you jack it up. Put the car in park and set the parking brake firmly.

STEP THREE: Lay out your tools. Grab a tire iron and go to the front wheels. The tire iron is that long metal rod with a socket on the end of it that usually comes with the vehicle. You can also buy a really cool one (called a spinner) that looks like a metal cross -- in fact, it is a metal cross -- with different-sized sockets on each end.

. . .

STEP SEVEN: Go home and have a lemonade. . . . .
[/quote]

Thanks, Bruce!  These are instructions that perhaps even I could follow!

I would, however, like the instructions bigger.  And the words smallerPreferably only one syllable, as much as possible.  So I can read them.  Just like the "Dick and Jane" books I am currently laboring through.

Like this:

Step 1 Park the car.

Park. Park. Park.

See the pretty car?

Pretty. Pretty. Pretty.

Step 2 Have some Lemonade!


Image

And pictures.  Nice pictures.  So I can see what I am supposed to do.  Like this:

[align=center]Image[/align]


Just make those changes and this will be the best Atom manual, ever!

Jacob :-)

Driver

Re: Brake honesty

Post by Driver » Tue Aug 29, 2006 10:25 pm

Here's rough edit for you. There are several glaring ommisions from that article. Namely the use of a lug wrench which are notorious for rounding off the nuts, and the precaution as it pertains to the reservoir(s) and where all that brake fluid is going to go when you start pushing back on the piston(s). Also never use vice grips or pliers on a caliper. There are dedicated scissor type pad spreaders for this if not use a c-clamp for retracting the piston. They are the best things to use. I've made several notes below and edited it. We shouldn't be discussing rotor replacement in here, thats a different topic altogether.

A generic overall view is here: http://auto.howstuffworks.com/disc-brake1.htm Ignor anything having to do with drums, ABS, and power assisted types.

Tools needed:
  • Paper Towels
    1/2" Large Socket wrench with proper size socket and short extension for lug nuts.
    Jack
    Jack stands, min of 2.
    Pad Spreader or 5-6" C-Clamp
    Specific sockets or allen wrenches to loosen caliper bolts.
    DOT Approved brake fluid.
    etc...
STEP ONE: Comfort first. Park the car in a cool, shady level spot and block the rear wheels so the car won't roll once you jack it up. Put the car in park gear and set the parking brake firmly.

STEP TWO:  Lay out your tools. Grab a tire iron Use a ratchet and socket of the correct size and go to the front wheels. loosen each lug nut 1/4 turn. The tire iron is that long metal rod with a socket on the end of it that usually comes with the vehicle. You can also buy a really cool one (called a spinner) that looks like a metal cross -- in fact, it is a metal cross -- with different-sized sockets on each end. You need to do this while the car is on the ground, otherwhise the tires could spin freely. What we want to do here, before jacking the car up off the ground, is loosen the lug nuts on the wheels just enough to break them free. So go do that. Work them off just enough until they loosen their resistance and become easy to turn with the tire iron.

STEP THREE:   Now slip the jack under the car.

There are several places to safely jack up the car. If you have a floorjack, you can roll it all the way under to the center of the engine and jack it up using the K-member that holds the engine. Be careful not to use the oil pan, as you might damage it. If you have a smaller, single floor jack, you'll have to do one side at a time. Look for flat spots on the frame, immediately to the rear of the front wheels, or on the end of each axle.
  Jack the car up and put jack stands under the car, either 2 or 4 depending on your preference and which end you are working on. Release the hydraullic jack so the stands support the car.

CAUTION: Always use jack stands. Never attempt to work on an elevated vehicle held in place only by a hydraulic jack.

Okay, raise the front axle off the ground. Put your jack stands under each end of the axle, and lower the car onto the stands. A jack stand (see illustration) is a metal tripod with variable height adjustments. You should own two.

STEP FOUR: Remove the lug nuts and the wheel (the tire will be attached). Finish removing the wheels. Best to work on one wheel at a time, leaving the other side intact as a point of reference. As a safety precaution, roll the wheel/tire assembly under the front-center of the car, between the jack stands, and plop it down beneath the engine's K-member. In the event of a faulty jack stand, this will break the vehicle's fall and could possibly save your life.

If it has been a major trial to get this far. Hire a mechanic.

STEP FIVE: Okay, take a breather. Now let's look at what we have before us.

A disc brake assembly is composed of the following elements: a caliper, two brake pads, a rotor, and some bolts and clips to hold it alltogether. It's a very simple design. Here's how it works.

The caliper comes in two flavors -- floating or fixed. Each works on a similar principle. The caliper's job is to squeeze the brake pads toward a centrally located metal plate -- the rotor -- producing friction, which in turn slows the car. Think of a hand slowly clamping down on a spinning record (or a CD, for you youngin's who've never heard the term "record" before).
[align=center]Image[/align]
The brake pads hover on either side of the metal plate. They attach to the inside of the caliper, depending on your car's design, with clips or bolts. They are composed of heat-resistant material (used to be asbestos on older cars but has since been changed on all modern cars) that rubs against the rotor. When the brakes are applied, brake fluid applys pressure to the piston, the pads move toward one another, gripping the rotor between them and slowing the wheels.

The rotor is that shiny metal disc staring you in the face right now. You can almost see your reflection, right? Get your eyes level with it. If you can't see your face, or at least its general outline, it may mean that the disc needs servicing or replacement. Below, we'll show you how to check this disc for scoring or marring, and what to do about that. If your brake rotor is not smooth and even. Replace it. That's another tutroial.

STEP SIX: Back to work. Remove the bolts holding the caliper in place. Gently slide it out and away from the rotor. Inspect the inside of the caliper. See the pads? They will be held in place by a bolt or a series of clips, sometimes both. Remove the bolts or clips holding the pads in place (remember, you left the other side intact to use as a reference) and work them free. Examine the pads. Is there any "meat" left on them, or are they worn down to the screws? If they're completely worn, you should've been hearing a metallic scrape for a while every time you applied the brakes.

Lay the pads aside and inspect the rotor. Can you see yourself in it? If the pads were worn into the metal, your rotor will be scored; you'll have trouble seeing yourself. Run your fingernails along the surface of the rotor -- careful, though; if it's been less than 20 minutes since you last drove the vehicle, they might still be hot -- first the side facing you, then the side facing away. Is it scored? Deeply? This next point is very important. If the rotor has any grooves at all in it, remove it at once. Now you have a decision to make. Replace them.

If you have a scored rotor, you must decide whether to have it "turned" or to replace it. If you're short on money, take it to a local mechanic and ask him to "turn" it for you. What they do is put it on a special metal-cutting lathe and shave off several thousandths of an inch of metal until the disc is shiny again. Remember, though, one of the real advantages of disc brakes over drum is their heat-handling capability. By removing metal, you reduce the system's thermal transfer capacity. We recommend turning the discs only when you are short on bucks. The better way is to take the disc to the auto parts store, match it up with a replacement, and buy a new one. Last time we did this, it only cost us twenty bucks for a new rotor, a cheap investment in safety. You have to go there anyway to buy the new brake pads, as well as a few other things, so why not make it one trip. In fact, here's your shopping list:

    * new rotor, or rotors, if needed
    * new brake pads (bring the old ones, to match them, you should have these before you even start as they are specialty items on a Atom, visually verify they are the same as your old ones when removing the first set.)
    * brake pad grease (comes in little packets; they're cheap, so buy two)

STEP SEVEN: Go home and have a lemonade.

STEP EIGHT: Before you go any further, you must move the piston back to its "full open" position. The piston? you ask. Ah, we didn't tell you about that one, did we? Remember the hand-and-record analogy. As the fingers push down (equivalent to the brake pads wearing) the distance between the brake pads shortens. Now that we have brand new pads, we must return the system -- the hand -- to its original "open" position, to accommodate the new pads. There are several ways to do this.

First, find the piston. There can be anywhere from 1 to 4 of them on a Atom caliper.  It is located along the back (closest to the engine) portion of the caliper. It's usually about three to four inches across, and resembles a small round metal promontory with a flat top. See it? Depending on its condition and age, there are several things you can do to move it back (toward the center of the car). If it's new, try pushing it in with the heel of your hand. Doesn't work? Okay, then try a channel lock or a vise grip. Still won't budge? Then here's a suggestion. A neighbor of ours turned us on to this once, and it works great. Get a large C-clamp, place a thin piece of wood or cardboard over the face of the piston to protect the surface from marring, and work it back that way. As you turn the handle on the clamp, it will increase pressure on the piston, until it becomes flush with the surrounding metal. Then loosen and remove the C-clamp.

Note: Loosen the cap on your brake reservoir, to allow the brake fluid to flow backwards in the closed system freely. Otherwhise you take the very real chance of blowing a seal. If you've added fluid you might want to lay some paper towels down to catch any overflow. Caution: Brake fluid will eat paint don't let it get on your finish.


STEP NINE:Install the new rotor, if necessary. Remove the old brake pads from the caliper (usually held in place by several clips), but, before putting on the new ones, you must do something. Remember the little packets of grease you bought? These are used to lubricate the brake pads. Careful now -- not on the front of the pad, which comes in contact with the rotor, but on the back. The pads attach to the caliper via a plate-and-clip arrangement. The lubricant goes between the plate and the back of the brake pad. Got it?

Don't overlook this. If you don't do it, you'll get a horrible screeching sound every time you apply the brakes, like a dinosaur in heat (and you know how horny those velociraptors used to get). After you apply the grease, attach the pad to the plate and slide the whole thing into place.

STEP TEN:. Basically, at this point, just reassemble the system in reverse order of the way you took it apart. Now do the other side. Now verify brake fuid levels in the reservoir and add or subtract as neccesary. Before you drive even 1 foot, stamp down firmly on the brake pedal several time. It'll usually be soft the first effort. This forces the pistons back out into contact with the pad s and the pads into the rotors. Verify once more the fluid levels in the reservoirs are topped off. Now, Take the car for a test spin. Sometimes, with new brakes, you can get some weird scraping and scratching sounds; these will usually go away in a few days. Clean up, and you're done.

Bed your brakes in. Get some decent speed and immediately do several hard, stops. You want your brakes to be as hot as possible so the pads bed properly. Several 100-0 stops should do it, or 5-6 multiple 60-0 in a row should suffice.

Don't underestimate the importance of a brake reline. As we said at the outset, absolutely nothing is more important than your car's ability to stop itself. Knowing more about your car's braking system -- getting in there and actually seeing what's going on -- empowers and informs you in a way that going to the corner mechanic doesn't.

Again, rough edit. Most if not all of this makes perfect sense if you just get someone to show you how the first time. Ask if you can watch it being done, or hire someone to teach you. Never have to pay someone again to put a simple set of pads on your car again. Old drum brakes are much harder than this.

FWIW,

Bottoz

Re: Brake honesty

Post by Bottoz » Tue Aug 29, 2006 11:35 pm

Nice... I'd only change one thing. Don't come to a complete stop when bedding the pads.  :tu:

Myerfire48

Re: Brake honesty

Post by Myerfire48 » Wed Aug 30, 2006 12:08 am

I didn't read the entire very thourough instructions as I've done my brakes a few times..  One thing that I'd like to add that has saved me almost every time.. Do one wheel entirely at a time.  That way, should you forget how a clip goes in you can refer to the other side if need be.  I've also evolved this just a bit with the evolution of digital photography.  I take pics while disassembling. 

Bottoz

Re: Brake honesty

Post by Bottoz » Wed Aug 30, 2006 1:04 am

[quote="Myerfire48"]
I didn't read the entire very thourough instructions as I've done my brakes a few times..  One thing that I'd like to add that has saved me almost every time.. Do one wheel entirely at a time.  That way, should you forget how a clip goes in you can refer to the other side if need be.  I've also evolved this just a bit with the evolution of digital photography.  I take pics while disassembling. 
[/quote]Same here, Digi pics are good! I did the same this weekend while installing a new Supercharger. Vaccum lines are a PITA without a reference. :)

Jammer

Re: Brake honesty

Post by Jammer » Wed Sep 06, 2006 4:58 am

You all are nuts... I just upgraded from sport brakes to Alcons.  Any idea where I get a choice of Pads and if they are grossly more expensive than Wilwood options?

Driver

Re: Brake honesty

Post by Driver » Wed Sep 06, 2006 5:30 am

Just look for Hawk, Porterfield and Ferodo. Number of people carry them and seem to be some of the most popular hi performance pads out there. I'd start with softer compounds due to the light weight of the Atom and the need to get some heat in there. Might even want to talk to some C@terham and Elise owners using similar setups and driving habits to see what they use on their lightweights.

Jammer

Re: Brake honesty

Post by Jammer » Wed Sep 06, 2006 12:04 pm

The manufacturers Im aware of, I just dont know which pad to order or price out!

bolus

Re: Brake honesty

Post by bolus » Wed Sep 06, 2006 3:44 pm

Jammer, Craig told me we get a list of recommended consumables - like brake pads - when we get the car.  Also, Brammo's upcoming online store will also sell them too. 

Terry Kennedy

Re: Brake honesty

Post by Terry Kennedy » Wed Sep 06, 2006 5:26 pm

[quote="bolus"]
Jammer, Craig told me we get a list of recommended consumables - like brake pads - when we get the car.  Also, Brammo's upcoming online store will also sell them too.   
[/quote]

Yup, it is in the owner's manual. It has a list of parts, both by Brammo part numbers, and (where applicable) the manufacturer's name and part number.

nickpoore

Re: Brake honesty

Post by nickpoore » Wed Sep 06, 2006 8:12 pm

[quote="Terry Kennedy"]
Yup, it is in the owner's manual. It has a list of parts, both by Brammo part numbers, and (where applicable) the manufacturer's name and part number.
[/quote]

Sssshhhh.

Don't anyone tell those UK guys that we get an owners manual.  :angel:

User avatar
Bruce Fielding
Posts: 16320
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Location: London
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Re: Brake honesty

Post by Bruce Fielding » Wed Sep 06, 2006 8:42 pm

I've bloody seen it!

Don't get me started...

Ii might have been inspired by the UK one at an early stage...
Ariel Atom Owners Club founder, based in Central London

Driver

Re: Brake honesty

Post by Driver » Wed Sep 06, 2006 10:20 pm

What UK one? ;)  From past posts it's sitting in a desk somewhere gathering dust.....

Go Ahead. Keep telling yourself whatever it takes to sleep at night... ;D

Jammer

Re: Brake honesty

Post by Jammer » Wed Sep 06, 2006 10:41 pm

[quote="Terry Kennedy"]
[quote="bolus"]
Jammer, Craig told me we get a list of recommended consumables - like brake pads - when we get the car.  Also, Brammo's upcoming online store will also sell them too.   
[/quote]

Yup, it is in the owner's manual. It has a list of parts, both by Brammo part numbers, and (where applicable) the manufacturer's name and part number.
[/quote]

Thanks

I guess my concern is the cost of Alcon fitting pads, as I will burn alot of them, verse cost of pads for the wilwoods.

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