aerodynamics

[JonnyBravo]

[quote="Bruce Fielding"]
[quote="Driver"]
You have to license your BICYCLES? ! Or is that how they describe motorcycles?
[/quote]

Sure!

Bicycles, skateboards, scooters, any wheeled vehicle used on the public highway...
[/quote]

Don't forget my rollerskates!

[JonnyBravo]

ooooooo look at me......

posting on the aerodynamics thread now.....

next i'll be letting people know how to hold a spanner! 

[dickedup]

[quote="Bruce Fielding"]
[quote="Driver"]
You have to license your BICYCLES? ! Or is that how they describe motorcycles?
[/quote]

Sure!

Bicycles, skateboards, scooters, any wheeled vehicle used on the public highway...
[/quote]

Dang!

All I can say is God Bless Texas.........as we can roll some crazy iron with virtual impunity.

What part of London are you in amigo?

[Tim Arnold]

Well, while we were on the subject of aerodynamics...............I thought that I'd put my 2 cents in. I was wondering if anybody had ever heard of using "dynamic" aerodynamics on a race car, i.e. changing the shape/angle of wings depending on speed and circumstances (I realize that this has little to do with an Atom, but it's sure as hell a lot closer to topic than what's been posted prior to this). I'm sure that most people reading this know about such things already in use on road cars. Porsche has been using it for quite some time, simply sticking up a spoiler when a certain speed is reached, and the Bugatti Veyron has taken it to a slightly higher level by doing that, and sharpening the angle under braking to induce more drag and downforce. I've got some ideas about how to implement something like this beyond just rate of speed and whether or not the brakes are being applied. Does anybody know why something like this has not been tried before on race cars? Is there some fundamental flaw about it that I'm overlooking?

Chaparral 2E is arguably the most significant Chaparral design. It introduced driver controlled aerodynamic downforce to the world. Its driver adjustable high mounted wing represented a dramatic change in the world of automobile racing. From that time forward, racing cars became aerodynamic ground vehicles. The Chaparral 2E was fast everywhere it raced in the 1966 Can-Am series, and once teething troubles were solved, Phil Hill and Jim Hall finished a memorable one-two at Laguna Seca.

This car was developed and campaigned by Jim Hall and Hap Sharp. Does anyone here know how Atom owners are connected to the Chaparral? (I do

McLaren did it with the F1 (road car). Honda's (B.A.R.) F1 car used in the Bonneville 400 project used a vertical stabilser (rudder) that from the side looked like the standard rear wing end plate, it was controlled by the on-board computer to stabilise the car's yaw at extremely high speeds. This was the only deviation from the F1 regulations (to which the car otherwise complied) during the record attempt. In F1 a rear wing was used last season that had a top element that deflected (caused by airflow) to close the gap between the wing elements at higher speeds, therefore reducing drag.

[1965Cobra427]

Check this out

http://windingroad.com/multimedia/issue ... urn-video/

might need to subscribe to Winding road. n/c

[Shinigami]

Interesting (if a bit flame induced) chat...

However, does anyone actually have the torsional stiffness numbers for a UK and US Atom?

I was able to find the following numbers for a variety of vehicle (not sure how accurate they are):
BMW z4: 14,500 Nm/degree
BMW z3: 5600 Nm/degree
BMW X5 (old): 23 500 Nm/degré
BMW X5 (new) 27 000 Nm/degré
VW Passat: 32,400 Nm/°
Saab 9-3 SportCombi: 21,000 Nm/degree
MG ZT: 24,000 Nm/degree
MGF: 7100 Nm/degree
MGTF: 8500 Nm/degree
Lotus Elise: 10500 Nm/degree
Mazda Miata NC: 8800 Nm/degree
Mazda NA and NB: 6000 Nm/degree
1st generation dodge neon is 8300 Nm/degree
Lotus Elan: 7900 Nm/degree, 8900 with GRP body attached.
Ferrari F50: 34,573 Nm/degree (yikes!)
1965 Lotus-STP Indy car: 4067 Nm/degree
1967 SPT-Paxton turbo Indy car: 47,453 Nm/degree
1966 Mallite McLaren: 13,558 Nm/degree
Lotus 33: 3253 Nm/degree
SEAT Cupra Sport Ibiza (Rally car): 35,928 Nm/degree
BMW 7 series: 35,000 Nm/degree
Dodge Neon: 6000 Nm/degree
Porsche 996 Turbo Convertible: 11,600 Nm/degree
Porsche 911 Turbo non-conv.: 27,000 Nm/degree
Koengisegg CC8S: 28,100 Nm/degree
Lamborghini Gallardo: 23,048 Nm/degreee
Chrysler LX sedan: 17,897 Nm/degree
Current F1 cars: 15,000 - 40,000 Nm/degree
MINI Cooper Convertible: 9000 Nm/degree
Jaguar XK Coupe 4.2 V8: 29,600 Nm/degree
Jaguar XK Conv. 4.2 V8: 15,300 Nm/degree
VW Touareg: 36,900 Nm/degree
Viper Coupe: ~12,000 Nm/degree
Viper GTS-R race car: 25,082 Nm/degree
Superperformance Coupe: 8134 Nm/degree
Pagani Zonda S: 26,300 Nm/degree
S2000: ~22,000 Nm/degree
RX-8's ~30,000 Nm/degree

[dp]

on the subject of steering technique - just saw something and realized that obviously the 'experts' on here would have a thing or two to teach this guy:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=OEJtBb-Pfxs

lol 

[Jacob Potts]

[quote="dp"]http://youtube.com/watch?v=OEJtBb-Pfxs[/quote]

Fabulous film find, dp!

The film brings up a serious problem of aerodynamics.  The aero/autodromo that Mr. Fangio was driving on was a rough road.

For us in the 21st century, we also encounter rough roads.  I have read numerous posts on this forum about rough B roads.  I have read elsewhere about poor quallity pavement in several countries.

Now, if we want to improve the aerodynamics of our Atoms, we must take into account the effects rough roads have on our aerodynamic designs.

At the very least, when our Atoms go across dips and bumps in the road, they change the car's angle of attack.

David Hansen wrote a good article  here about the aerodynamics of angle of attack as the cause of the "blow-overs" of the Mercedes Benz LeMans race cars in 1999.

[align=center][/align]

To a lesser extent, any aerodynamic device, active or passive, that we put on our Atoms will be affected by the changes in the angle of attack as we go over rough roads.  There are other aerodynamic problems, I am sure, that rough roads create that I do not know of.  How do we handle whatever problems rough roads create?

Any insights you have would be much appreciated,

Jacob :-)

modified June 7, 2007 by JP to apply makeup to type face.

[benyeats]

[quote="Jacob Potts"]
[quote="dp"]http://youtube.com/watch?v=OEJtBb-Pfxs[/quote]

Fabulous film find, dp!

The film brings up a serious problem of aerodynamics.  The aero/autodromo that Mr. Fangio was driving on was a rough road.

For us in the 21st century, we also encounter rough roads.  I have read numerous posts on this forum about rough B roads.  I have read elsewhere about poor quallity pavement in several countries.

Now, if we want to improve the aerodynamics of our Atoms, we must take into account the effects rough roads have on our aerodynamic designs.

At the very least, when our Atoms go across dips and bumps in the road, they change the car's angle of attack.

David Hansen wrote a good article  here about the aerodynamics of angle of attack as the cause of the "blow-overs" of the Mercedes Benz LeMans race cars in 1999.

[align=center][/align]

To a lesser extent, any aerodynamic device, active or passive, that we put on our Atoms will be affected by the changes in the angle of attack as we go over rough roads.  There are other aerodynamic problems, I am sure, that rough roads create that I do not know of.  How do we handle whatever problems rough roads create?

Any insights you have would be much appreciated,

Jacob :-)
[/quote]

One of the LM Mercs was being driven by Mark Webber now of F1 fame

Ben

[haymanator]

[quote="dp"]
on the subject of steering technique - just saw something and realized that obviously the 'experts' on here would have a thing or two to teach this guy:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=OEJtBb-Pfxs

lol 


[/quote]





dpâ?¦.thanks for clarifying - that you have no understanding whatsoever about vehicle dynamics.
For the benefit of Amateurs such as yourself that might be confusing that master at work behind the wheelâ?¦compared to the cack-handed attempts of replicating said steering inputs as displayed on your site videosâ?¦.heâ??s drifting that car - heâ??s steering it with the throttle - it has very little traction; thereâ??s no comparison to someone like you who doesnâ??t posses any car control - pointlessly attempting to replicate those necessary inputsâ?¦.in a car that isnâ??t suited to them.
Get tuition dp on how to hold a steering wheel in readiness for counter steer - once learnt, you might even grasp the concept of driving with some finesse.
No doubt, you are going to say know better though..SIGH

[wisp]

[quote="haymanator"]
Get tuition dp on how to hold a steering wheel in readiness for counter steer - once learnt, you might even grasp the concept of driving with some finesse.
No doubt, you are going to say know better though..SIGH

[/quote]

Hey John,

Dennis is very confident of his superior driving ability. Or did you miss the fact that he has trown down the gauntlet? 

            Refer to the thread northwest us laptime challenge

[dickedup]

[quote="haymanator"] dpâ?¦.thanks for clarifying - that you have no understanding whatsoever about vehicle dynamics.
For the benefit of Amateurs such as yourself that might be confusing that master at work behind the wheelâ?¦compared to the cack-handed attempts of replicating said steering inputs as displayed on your site videosâ?¦.heâ??s drifting that car - heâ??s steering it with the throttle - it has very little traction; thereâ??s no comparison to someone like you who doesnâ??t posses any car control - pointlessly attempting to replicate those necessary inputsâ?¦.in a car that isnâ??t suited to them.
Get tuition dp on how to hold a steering wheel in readiness for counter steer - once learnt, you might even grasp the concept of driving with some finesse.
No doubt, you are going to say know better though..SIGH [/quote]

Don't sugar coat it amigo....give it to him straight.                                   



     

[ebeck]

Don't you just love it when this forum turns into "I know more than you"!!

[dickedup]

[quote="wisp"]
[Dennis is very confident of his superior driving ability. Or did you miss the fact that he has trown down the gauntlet? 

             Refer to the thread northwest us laptime challenge


[/quote]

It's so easy to envision Keebler in his basement, playing this driving game.........arms flailing EVERYWHERE!


         

Maybe if a webcam where installed....... 

Hours of entertainment.