The Bastard's Build

[thrlskr]

Any update on your engine? Also, can you post pictures of your Ciro wing mount the next tine you have the nose off?

[cvjoint]

Any update on your engine? Also, can you post pictures of your Ciro wing mount the next tine you have the nose off?

Diagnosis: CRACKED SLEEVE. OEM sleeve broke right off between cylinders 1 and 2. This is a surprise for me. I thought the OEM sleeves are good to 500hp, it's literally unheard of to crack one at 450hp but I suppose I tend to break things early on the way I use them. Metal from sleeve got into the combustion chamber so the head is toast as well. This will require a new build from scratch.

No pics for a while, car will be in the shop for some time for new engine.

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Another question. As you’re in the US you know Palatov. He says that his bell cranks make the world of difference. Have you seen, tried them??

Haven't seen or tried them. I quite like the OEM suspension geometry and I've taken the approach of leaving it as is. It's much more fun and easier to go faster with more power or aero instead of suspension, though obviously not cheaper!

[John Scherrer]

Billet bell cranks might look great but the downside is that if you have a big 'off', you run the risk of bending the frame rather than the bellcrank.

[Peter255]

Diagnosis: CRACKED SLEEVE. OEM sleeve broke right off between cylinders 1 and 2. This is a surprise for me. I thought the OEM sleeves are good to 500hp, it's literally unheard of to crack one at 450hp but I suppose I tend to break things early on the way I use them. Metal from sleeve got into the combustion chamber so the head is toast as well. This will require a new build from scratch.

No pics for a while, car will be in the shop for some time for new engine.

Oh no. Thats a set-back!

Closed deck block next time for the rebuild?

[cvjoint]

Diagnosis: CRACKED SLEEVE. OEM sleeve broke right off between cylinders 1 and 2. This is a surprise for me. I thought the OEM sleeves are good to 500hp, it's literally unheard of to crack one at 450hp but I suppose I tend to break things early on the way I use them. Metal from sleeve got into the combustion chamber so the head is toast as well. This will require a new build from scratch.

No pics for a while, car will be in the shop for some time for new engine.

Oh no. Thats a set-back!

Closed deck block next time for the rebuild?

Indeed a set-back, I expected the clutch would slip, detonation from using high compression, OEM rods to pop, or oil starvation/spun bearings. Never the sleeve! It goes to show that using the car 20 minutes at a time in 40*C ambient for road course this whole summer is some real use and abuse.

Now we get to enter the exciting life of sleeving. At the end of the day it wasn't the type of sleeve that dictated the direction, it was how backed up the machine shops are. Apparently there are only a few shops that do sleeving, it's a specialty, and they are all backed up now. I went with Golden Eagle because they gave me 3-4 week turn around and they're only 500 miles from me. Some shops gave me a 12 week timeline!

Golden Eagle sleeves are self-characterized as semi-closed. To me, they look like closed deck sleeves, albeit the top part is open. See this representative pic:

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I have a lot of cooling overhead with the sidepods totally dedicated to engine cooling, so even if the closed deck sleeve design adds some load, it will be handled easily. I honestly don't think it adds much in terms of strength to open sleeve design. We saw that the sleeves failed between cylinders 1,2. All sleeve designs are equally weak there. I suppose since the block is stronger with that webbing it may distort less. My Atom has the block rigidly mounted to the chassis and may rely on the block for stiffness.

[thrlskr]

That's surprising. I thought the rods would go first. What a bummer. FWIW I don't think your 450hp<500hp for sleeve failure comparison is that simple. It might take 100hp to spin your 38R. That block could be experiencing the cylinder pressures of ~550hp even if you're netting 450hp.

For me that's always been the primary negative in the SC vs turbo debate. 450hp could be safe for a turbo and on borrowed time for a rotrex.

[cvjoint]

That's surprising. I thought the rods would go first. What a bummer. FWIW I don't think your 450hp<500hp for sleeve failure comparison is that simple. It might take 100hp to spin your 38R. That block could be experiencing the cylinder pressures of ~550hp even if you're netting 450hp.

For me that's always been the primary negative in the SC vs turbo debate. 450hp could be safe for a turbo and on borrowed time for a rotrex.

The rods I thought could be a diamond in the rough. Cracked cap, forged, and meaty at 585g. They proved very strong as the specs suggested, only reason you'd expect less is because they are from an OEM 200hp application.

Agreed on taking some power to spin, but not sure turbo would be the comparison group. Certainly 450hp supercharged presents more load than 450 naturally aspirated. What I do know is that if I built a 450hp/310tq naturally aspirated engine on 100 octane it would have not lasted as much! It would be swell to know the power required to spin a Rotrex. With turbos I would think the exhaust manifold does present large power losses compared to the exhaust manifold you can design for a supercharger system. Rotrex doesn't get in the way of the header design, and with the tight confines of the Atom that could amount to a lot.

I was trying to find some data I saw on the LS9 ZR1. I think the TVS took 72hp or so to spin in that 638hp application, but working off memory here.

[cvjoint]

First race of the year completed. Happy to report the new wing design is solid! It took a massive rework of the APR wing to convert it to a top mount design, custom Ciro endplates, and custom fab on the OEM mount. I ruined about half a dozen department store credit cards to get the old double sticky off the APR bottom mounts without scratching the clear coat or cracking the carbon fiber. Pro tip: the Bloomingdale card worked the best.

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Wing stability is on another level, so much so that I'm skipping plans to add triangulation and can get away with this simple and more sleek package. If you see this in the paddock and want to test it by sitting on the edge of it, please don't. This is mostly theoretical.

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Despite cutting the middle third of the second element, downforce feels identical to having the full element. It's likely that the ground effect improves the efficiency considerably compared to having it mounted a foot off the ground. Car still wants more rear wang to balance out.

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Clearance is high enough that curbing hasn't been an issue. It only rubs a tad going on the trailer. No offs yet to test the off-road ruggedness, but if history is any use, offs will be plenty.

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First on track, last on the trailer. Not a bad outcome for the little guy. [Not counting the Praga R1 that was a full 3 seconds faster the day before.]

[cvjoint]

Got a new hot time at Laguna Seca, 1:31.76 That's half a second faster than the F8 Tributo Ferrari lap record. Not moving a lot of weight here but moving!

Enjoy in 4k 60fps

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyfpGp2EJug

Another lap within 1 tenth:

https://youtu.be/Sx8-4-yTHMY

[Preseh]

Nice driving What a machine!

[Curves Junkie]

Great run - I love your vids.

I see you have taped off the air intakes in the nose.
Did you drive those times at Laguna Seca in the winter?

In CA the weather is rather hot, are you aware of the oil temperature?

[cvjoint]

Great run - I love your vids.

I see you have taped off the air intakes in the nose.
Did you drive those times at Laguna Seca in the winter?

In CA the weather is rather hot, are you aware of the oil temperature?

The cooling system on this one is extensive. It has to be over 100*F to need all the cooling inlets. This past weekend the peak ambient was just over 70*F, water was 190-200*F and oil was 190*-200*F. In the morning session I taped up the nose cone completely just to get it up to temp. In the winter I have to start taping up the sidepods too.

[Ariel Club]

Sorry for chiming in here, but... This build has been one of the most interesting ones to watch over the months / years. So much so that we did a write up on it last September - https://ariel.club/the-bastards-build/

Well worth checking out if you haven't done so already!

Great to see that things are still forging forward [mention]cvjoint[/mention]. Congrats on the new personal record!

[Curves Junkie]

Great run - I love your vids.

I see you have taped off the air intakes in the nose.
Did you drive those times at Laguna Seca in the winter?

In CA the weather is rather hot, are you aware of the oil temperature?

The cooling system on this one is extensive. It has to be over 100*F to need all the cooling inlets. This past weekend the peak ambient was just over 70*F, water was 190-200*F and oil was 190*-200*F. In the morning session I taped up the nose cone completely just to get it up to temp. In the winter I have to start taping up the sidepods too.

100°F = 38°C
70°F = 21°C
190-200°F = 88-93°C

I had optimized my cooling system too.

Few weeks ago I was at Hockenheim circuit
air temp 32°C/90°F
Water at 89°C/192°F but Oil 133°C/270°F I finished the session to protect my engine.

Two weeks ago I hit the stelvio pass.
air temp 18°C/64°F
water 104°C/219°F and oil 85°C/185°F

Do you have water cooler in both sidepods and only one in front of the car?

I'm worried that my problem is the missing of Super Charger Cooler.


[mention]Ariel Club[/mention] thx for the tip.
I know that very interesting link.

[cvjoint]

Great run - I love your vids.

I see you have taped off the air intakes in the nose.
Did you drive those times at Laguna Seca in the winter?

In CA the weather is rather hot, are you aware of the oil temperature?

The cooling system on this one is extensive. It has to be over 100*F to need all the cooling inlets. This past weekend the peak ambient was just over 70*F, water was 190-200*F and oil was 190*-200*F. In the morning session I taped up the nose cone completely just to get it up to temp. In the winter I have to start taping up the sidepods too.

100°F = 38°C
70°F = 21°C
190-200°F = 88-93°C

I had optimized my cooling system too.

Few weeks ago I was at Hockenheim circuit
air temp 32°C/90°F
Water at 89°C/192°F but Oil 133°C/270°F I finished the session to protect my engine.

Two weeks ago I hit the stelvio pass.
air temp 18°C/64°F
water 104°C/219°F and oil 85°C/185°F

Do you have water cooler in both sidepods and only one in front of the car?

I'm worried that my problem is the missing of Super Charger Cooler.


@Ariel Club thx for the tip.
I know that very interesting link.

Do you have a dedicated oil cooler? From the data it seems like you only have water cooling, or water cooling plus a brick to transfer some cooling to oil. A dedicated oil cooler is going to certainly prevent it from going up to 270*F. I wouldn't worry about 219*F on water. Honda heads are quite stout and headgaskets rarely go. You could probably push oil a bit over 270*F as well, but definitely change it out after that track day. If you go with thicker oil it will handle high temps a lot better and the bearings will last longer.

I have two water heat exchangers and one oil heat exchanger. The nose has the factory high capacity water radiator. Cooling charge is taken care of using an air to air heat exchanger in the airbox. I also have a Rotrex oil cooler. In total 5 heat exchangers.