Atom 4 - Pre Spec/Order Discussion

[anx10us]

I'm sold, deposit down more zoom

As have I, managed to get my deposit down just after goodwood, back then wait time was 22 months, any idea what it is now ?

[jaylatti]

No idea ,paid mine just before goodward so got in early .I'm now mentally a 10 year old waiting for Christmas.At the time 14 months was mentioned to me

[Hedge]

Problem is, the Atom doesn't really see high speeds due to drag.

Really? It has a top speed of 162 mph.

Cheers,
Hedge

[HenryJS]

Revisions on an already fantastic dual a arm setup are going have a minimal impact.

Not true!
The difference is akin to Atom 1 => Atom 3.5. yes, the look almost identical if it went whizzing past you, but believe me - they are night and day different. The only way to believe it is to experience for yourself... Its a little like the early supercharged cars, whenever we used to have new customers through the door, regardless of what car they turned up in, and how much we said 'the car is really, really fast' some never believed us how fast it was. Then when we came back from doing a drive, it was mainly silence and oohs and aahs about how blindingly quick it was. the car is now quicker, easier etc, I wouldn't use the words 'less exciting' its just easier to have the same fun in!

Active damping is achievable. for a road? no. for a track? most certainly. the question really is, how fast do you want to go? do you want sunday funday? or do you want to set the lap record round your local racetrack! Because the car will do either / both.

[Anon]

Active damping is achievable. for a road? no. for a track? most certainly. the question really is, how fast do you want to go? do you want sunday funday? or do you want to set the lap record round your local racetrack! Because the car will do either / both.

I'd like mine to be track focused mostly and will only use it on the road to drive to the track when I feel like it. The things I'd like (depending on cost) are; sequential gearbox - for me this is most important, more so than extra power but it depends on cost, if its anywhere near the £22k then definitely not. The options of a Quaife or a Hewland would be fantastic. Granted, they might be a good as a Sadev but they are a 3rd of the price. This leaves money left for things like big brakes and adjustable suspension.

Cheers
Simon

[Tompy]

Nice to hear there are big changes. Tottaly new for me. Been dreaming of an atom almost 10 years now. Finnaly got the blessing of the wife
Just been 10 min in an 3.5r of the belgian dealer.
And for the moment my only experience in an atom.( i know. Kînd of sad...)
Sunday go circiut clastres in france to have some more fun with the 3.5r.
And for the rest all we can do now is wait....

[autobackup]

Just as a matter of oblique interest to the discussions on this thread

- I got an 'indicated' speed (RT2 Dash) of 162mph down the start/finish straight on June 10th during Supercar Sunday at Silverstone in my newly rebuilt 3.5R!

- I would add that this was with a full windscreen and also perspex side panels fitted plus a rear wing only - the front wing wasn't fitted as it remained in Cyprus when my Atom went back to the factory for the rebuild/upgrade.

Incidentally during the rebuild the engine bay also was strengthened (adding about 15% to the frame stiffness) how this compares to the torsional stiffness of an Atom 4 would be interesting!

I have absolutely no idea whatsoever on how accurate the Race Technology RT2 dash speed indication is but my TomTom Rider 550 was flickering around the 260km/h mark!!

[s2kseven]

"It's more than suspension geometry. The car is stiffer (normally means more power to the tarmac),"

My humble opinion, the TMI SRA is the stiffest Atom of them all. Has to be certified by SCCA.
I went to a car gathering and parked the car in the uneven pavement,
One of the car owner at the gathering alerted me that my right front tire was not touching the ground
The SRA has more welded support than the street atom. With boost by gear configuration, I have no problem unleashing the 415hp to the
tarmac.

[cvjoint]

Revisions on an already fantastic dual a arm setup are going have a minimal impact.

Not true!
The difference is akin to Atom 1 => Atom 3.5. yes, the look almost identical if it went whizzing past you, but believe me - they are night and day different. The only way to believe it is to experience for yourself... Its a little like the early supercharged cars, whenever we used to have new customers through the door, regardless of what car they turned up in, and how much we said 'the car is really, really fast' some never believed us how fast it was. Then when we came back from doing a drive, it was mainly silence and oohs and aahs about how blindingly quick it was. the car is now quicker, easier etc, I wouldn't use the words 'less exciting' its just easier to have the same fun in!

Active damping is achievable. for a road? no. for a track? most certainly. the question really is, how fast do you want to go? do you want sunday funday? or do you want to set the lap record round your local racetrack! Because the car will do either / both.

If it's that good then I'm looking forward for the instrumented tests. Better yet, perhaps Ariel can send one to Exotics Racing in Vegas. No better way to get people hooked. I remain a skeptic that the dual wishbone can be improved that noticeably, and again, it's more of a testament to how well honed it is already in my SRA/Cup car. It puts power down as well as my S2000 and my Corvette C7 Z06 Z07, and those were also fully optimized double wishbone cars.

Some of the "butt feel" does not translate to outright speed. Turbo cars build up that torque rather quickly and deliver it in a chunk at low rpm. Many turbo cars feel fast but are lethargically slow on track, especially once the water to air IC system absorbs the first lap's heat. Great for short spirited drives on the road where you want to have the kick of the longitudinal G for a few seconds.

Some of the best upgrades for the road will be things no one thinks about. That turning radius for example, that will come in handy real nicely. I can barely move the car on the paddock without climbing on someone else's trailer. The craftsmanship does seem to be a huge step forward, and as most Atoms are used on the road there is a lot to look forward to for most that move to the Atom 4.

I suppose my fear draws from the C7 Z06 experience. Chevy added boost, a longer wheelbase, and interior amenities over the outgoing Z06. In the process they built a heavier and bigger car that can't cope with the heat of road course use. Though it's more powerful for short stints the added weight is noticeable everywhere on track and builds so much heat it can't keep up with its predecessor after a few laps. The Atom 4 is still a featherweight so some of these concerns are a moot point obviously.

Problem is, the Atom doesn't really see high speeds due to drag.

Really? It has a top speed of 162 mph.

Cheers,
Hedge

My tow car can do that, and it's a mid grade SUV from the late 2000s. I get absolutely clobbered on track on the straights from cars with inferior power to weight and never get to use 6th gear. At most I get to 120 mph on my racetracks. Even if I double the power I won't go much faster than 135 mph. I don't really need a longer wheelbase which hampers turn in, which I do need. There are many ways to stabilize a car at speed, I prefer downforce over a longer wheelbase.

[Luckky]

Does anyone know if there any video reviews of the 4 coming on to YouTube?

[reg]

If it's that good then I'm looking forward for the instrumented tests. Better yet, perhaps Ariel can send one to Exotics Racing in Vegas. No better way to get people hooked. I remain a skeptic that the dual wishbone can be improved that noticeably, and again, it's more of a testament to how well honed it is already in my SRA/Cup car. It puts power down as well as my S2000 and my Corvette C7 Z06 Z07, and those were also fully optimized double wishbone cars.

Let's just stick to a few factual things here.

Having lived and worked all over the US apart from a few Mid West places the public roads are like glass. Let's stretch this further and say when it's hot in the kind of places people buy Atoms for, it's very hot. So. We have two very considerable advantages from the beginning over the UK, heat, and smooth roads. Now, race cars. It's one thing discussing a race car chassis setup to a road car. Your SRA/Cup car wouldn't see which way my 310 went on the average UK road on the way to the local takeaway, especially if I was hungry. I am sure talent wise, I would have less, but without 4 wheels in contact with the road I don't think any magical dual wishbone setup would overcome a compliant setup that allows things to work over their full range of motion? So, we have two very similar chassis's and two totally different environments, both of them able to perform very well.

I am not sure why the US magazines are so obsessed with skidpans, I guess we just see roundabouts for what they are, a necessary form of traffic control? But seriously, all a skid pan can tell you is actual lateral grip on a broadly regular surface at a constant rate of motion. How many road cars or even road race cars drive like that?

How can the new car, which has been universally praised in its ability to deal with bump steer, cambers and understeer over and above the outgoing model not be better on track? Having helped out in various race teams the nightmare scenario was the TT. It was effectively 10 circuits in one and there was always a compromise to get the bike to work in all places well and not one single place badly. Going to Spain to race at Jerez on its billiard smooth surface and 30-35deg track temperature was a breeze in comparison, wind the dampers up and concentrate on the fuelling.

The new car IMO, will be a better 'platform' period. More stable, which means you should be able to push turn in to a point where on a less stable chassis the car would be come less manageable. You mention the S2000, I can't think of a better example of any production car in the last 20 years that works so well on track but so badly on the road, frankly it's an awful unresolved car as it arrives from the factory. Rear damping doesn't match the front and the steering is too slow and lacks feel. I say this as a Honda fan, two DC2 R's (which would both give the S2K a bloody nose), an NSX and an FD2 R. On the road the S2K just kicks off of one bump to another and the rear never settles down, it never gets going lacking any kind of fluidity. That would be ok, you could deal with that if it didn't have an engine and gearbox that just loves to be extended. It was almost as if big H were having a bit of laugh at our expense, perhaps they just didn't like English hedgerows and instead of cutting them thought they could fire their customers S2000's through them to keep them down? Besides, what's an S2000, 1300Kg, more than double the Atom, with a very traditional front engine RWD layout? I haven't driven many Corvettes, the main one being a '72 C3, but again, I just cannot see the relevance. Similar to the S2K the layout is traditional, weight is up again to 1500Kg or so. How are two 'fully optimized double wishbone cars' which stumble out of the cake shop between 2.2 and 2.5 times the weight with engine mass in a totally different place relevant? This is, and can only be a benchmark of the 3.5 and the 4.

Lastly, you said honed, you obviously mean your own vehicle? Because I can tell you that like for like a similarly powered 7 (let's face it a car designed by early cavemen whilst chasing dinosaurs) will match, and with comparable drivers be able to shade the Atom. It has never been a problem for me, but my friends with beards tell me that at Spa I would get destroyed by them. I think it comes down to the size of your plums quite frankly but there is no denying that the balance in the 3.5 always feels what it is. I improved mine a lot, I would like to think it is one of the better ones with Intrax. The point I am making is that it is possible to improve anything once you have a starting point, I don't think any engineer would say otherwise?

Some of the "butt feel" does not translate to outright speed. Turbo cars build up that torque rather quickly and deliver it in a chunk at low rpm. Many turbo cars feel fast but are lethargically slow on track, especially once the water to air IC system absorbs the first lap's heat. Great for short spirited drives on the road where you want to have the kick of the longitudinal G for a few seconds.

It's true that torque can play tricks on your mind, jump into any modern diesel rep-mobile and it feels 'brisk', it's not, it's just how the power comes in. There was a study that proved that the body and mind is much more heavily influenced by acceleration at lower speeds...

Visual systems adapt to the prevailing image conditions. This improves the ability to discriminate between two similar stimuli but has the side effect that veridical perception is degraded. For example, prolonged driving at 100 km/h may reduce the perceived speed to 80 km/h but improve the sensitivity to changes in the prevailing speed. Here we use radially expanding flow fields with a wide combination of adapt and test speeds to study human speed perception. Adaptation at speeds higher than the test always attenuates perceived speed, whereas adaptation at low and testing at high speeds increases perceived speed. We show that adaptation is stronger (i.e., post-adaptation speeds are perceived as slower) when the dots in the expanding flow field accelerate towards the periphery rather than travelling at constant speeds. We also show that speed discriminability is reduced following adaptation to low speeds when tested at high speeds and increased when the test speed is at or below prior adaptation speeds. We conclude that the relative speeds of the adaptation and test patterns are important parameters governing speed-related adaptation effects in the human brain.

Mmmm, absolutely, and as fascinating as that is there is not one study that I can find that doesn't recognise the significant impact of torque over horsepower. If you then have a similar horsepower, with all other parts equal, it is very likely you are going to have some fun. My only fear, and one that remains, is that I will miss the screaming top end and soundtrack, but with the headroom for much more power and more importantly a chassis that let's you exploit it, that's a risk I am prepared to take.

I suppose my fear draws from the C7 Z06 experience. Chevy added boost, a longer wheelbase, and interior amenities over the outgoing Z06. In the process they built a heavier and bigger car that can't cope with the heat of road course use. Though it's more powerful for short stints the added weight is noticeable everywhere on track and builds so much heat it can't keep up with its predecessor after a few laps. The Atom 4 is still a featherweight so some of these concerns are a moot point obviously.

If that's your main fear, I wouldn't concern yourself with it. A 7 Litre engine encased in bodywork, I imagine the heat soak would be huge from the car, not to mention loads more power in a Corvette is probably going to beat the tyres and suspension into submission! I can't think of two polar opposite ways of going fast

My tow car can do that, and it's a mid grade SUV from the late 2000s. I get absolutely clobbered on track on the straights from cars with inferior power to weight and never get to use 6th gear. At most I get to 120 mph on my racetracks. Even if I double the power I won't go much faster than 135 mph. I don't really need a longer wheelbase which hampers turn in, which I do need. There are many ways to stabilize a car at speed, I prefer downforce over a longer wheelbase.

I am sure it can, until you reach a corner, or need to stop. Guessing a SVT 150 type truck?

I am still confused about the question you are asking, if there is one? We have been told the car is more powerful and more stable. We have been told it has better aero and is more accelerative at higher speeds. It has more powerful brakes, a better dash, more lock. It's 15% stiffer, it crashes better, even from behind they say.

So.

Call me Mr Gullible, but taking into account the above, how is this car not going to be a better road and track car?

I don't post on here much, this is why

[AndyH]

Thank you Reg

ABSOLUTELY BRILLIANT POST !

Henry tells us the 4 is a great car !

Two well respected motoring journalists Matt Prior and Ollie Marriage who have driven the 4 both say the car is a vast improvement on the 3.5 (which is a hard act to follow)

So I totally agree with you that the 4 must be a better car.

Cheers

Andy

[Winmoz]

Having read the initial reviews I am seriously thinking about lodging some “holiday”money with the boys in the factory. That would mean probably holding off superchargering my 3.5 in 19 and looking to flip it on as one of the last “pure” 2ltr NA cars built when the time comes.

But......

A civilised Atom? Do I want a civilised Atom? I went for a blat in mine today and came back with every nerve ending tingling. I felt alive. I felt happy. I felt awe.

Am going to have to drive a 4 before I part with my 3.5. Assuming I go ahead and pop the cash down, what are my options if I decide to stick with the 3.5? Do you think I could trade the deposit for part payment on a supercharger conversion?

[Anon]

Am going to have to drive a 4 before I part with my 3.5. Assuming I go ahead and pop the cash down, what are my options if I decide to stick with the 3.5? Do you think I could trade the deposit for part payment on a supercharger conversion?

If I were in your shoes Winmoz, I would enjoy my car for at least 2 years and at the same time put a deposit down on a 4 because the wait list is so long you'll have at least 2 years to enjoy the awesome 3.5. Then come close to build slot, sell the 3.5 to upgrade to the 4.

The 4 without a doubt is better in every way on an existing awesome car, it has to be otherwise Ariel would not have a business. The SC wine will not be there but the performance improvements alone out weigh this, not to mention I always thought the supercharger on the Atom was too loud but that is just me. Another comparison is the new M2 CS is way better than the original M2 and you'd be crazy to buy a M2 "classic" not that you can as they stopped making them. No doubt the 4.5 will be better than the 4 when it arrives. Looking at the changes on the 4, if you know about car setup, without even driving it you know what Ariel are going after, and that is a faster easier to drive car. That is what I want, I don't want a SR3, 620R or BAC Mono to pass me on the track So I love the direction of the Atom.

[Peter255]

Do you think I could trade the deposit for part payment on a supercharger conversion?

The non-refundable (i checked) deposit is against a new car. It cannot even be used for a second hand car direct from Ariel.

You pays your money and you are committed to buy a new car from Ariel, or forget the money. You might be able to buy a bike, but its for a new vehicle only.

My view on this is the new car will sound less mad (lets be honest the charger whine is mental - in a good way!), it will be smoother, more torquey, less peaky, have less vibration, more grip, in general handle better. So in most cases be faster, but less raw and frightening. I will miss the noise. But in the end the new car will handle better and no doubt be faster and easier to drive fast. Its evolution. Continuation of the development of design for each model. Its progress tbh. It will handle the power better, which is less frightening but ultimately better. Put it this way my Atom 2 is probably more raw than a 3.5 (non-R). It's got similar power, but handles a little worse, has more vibration etc. Is the 2 better because of it? I don't think many would say so.

I think the 4 will come alive with more power. I want more power to retain the power to weight from my current car. I cannot believe 340BHP is anything more than a remap away.