Interesting topic this one.
As far as chassis mods go there's always space for improvement depending on how much you want to spend... and the Atom is no exception. From plenty of tests I've done with the guys at Ariel (in the works race car in 2004) I just wanted to point out that there's much more time to be had 'just' by learning how to drive the car. It's mega quick out of the box, there's no doubt about that, but those extra tenths can actually be made up by further understanding of the car's 'original' chassis dynamics.
But is there really a need to quicker? The Atom is firmly established as the car to beat in the Mid-Engined Sports Cars and as far as track days are concerned I'm sure there's not an awful lot this side of a Radical which will flash you out of the way. I fully understand why there is the 'want' to go faster so for now if you're eager I suggest you read the wise words typed by Bruce and speak to Ariel direct. It's race experience over the last two years will certainly help improve your lap times as well as your driving experience.
Keith
Bruce: Good to meet up again at Brands, nice to see the new car!
Vegantune
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haymanator
Re: Vegantune
i totally agree with what you say keith about getting to know the car and driver training, it was something i posted on the old forum when discussing bhp.
that said.... there is nothing wrong with trying to tweak a chassis for race purposes. i am the perfect example of how it can go wrong trying things yourself..... like big stiff springs that just didn't work at brands for example...doh! thats why i now have experts on board (brands was a learning day for them) who won't let that happen again.
Vegantune are very keen to learn about the atom, they love the concept, but have seen ways to possibly improve upon it and cetainly hone my car for racing and track hire (all this spinning lark that many posters on here experience is not good for my business with clients driving it for instance. i need my car to be as friendly as possible on track but still thrill with its outright speed)
that said.... there is nothing wrong with trying to tweak a chassis for race purposes. i am the perfect example of how it can go wrong trying things yourself..... like big stiff springs that just didn't work at brands for example...doh! thats why i now have experts on board (brands was a learning day for them) who won't let that happen again.
Vegantune are very keen to learn about the atom, they love the concept, but have seen ways to possibly improve upon it and cetainly hone my car for racing and track hire (all this spinning lark that many posters on here experience is not good for my business with clients driving it for instance. i need my car to be as friendly as possible on track but still thrill with its outright speed)
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AtomFun
Re: Vegantune
Nice to see this thread coming to life with some good debate.
John, one comment regarding spinning. I think you will agree that no amount of tweaking with the Atom's build will stop a bad driver spinning. Improvements might help a bad driver spin at faster speeds whereas it'll help a good driver win a race.
John, one comment regarding spinning. I think you will agree that no amount of tweaking with the Atom's build will stop a bad driver spinning. Improvements might help a bad driver spin at faster speeds whereas it'll help a good driver win a race.
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Bruce Fielding
- Posts: 16320
- Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2005 1:13 pm
- Location: London
- Contact:
Re: Vegantune
[quote="AtomFun"]
Nice to see this thread coming to life with some good debate.
John, one comment regarding spinning. I think you will agree that no amount of tweaking with the Atom's build will stop a bad driver spinning. Improvements might help a bad driver spin at faster speeds whereas it'll help a good driver win a race.
[/quote]
Not going to get back into that spin doctor discussion here.
95% of all those driving Atoms will never, ever squeeze every last drop of potential from the car. For the 5% like John, Keith, MC etc. it's worth spending the extra on bits. For almost everyone else, it's a lot cheaper to buy racing lessons and they last a lot longer.
And hey - that's advice from the factory, too!
Nice to see this thread coming to life with some good debate.
John, one comment regarding spinning. I think you will agree that no amount of tweaking with the Atom's build will stop a bad driver spinning. Improvements might help a bad driver spin at faster speeds whereas it'll help a good driver win a race.
[/quote]
Not going to get back into that spin doctor discussion here.
95% of all those driving Atoms will never, ever squeeze every last drop of potential from the car. For the 5% like John, Keith, MC etc. it's worth spending the extra on bits. For almost everyone else, it's a lot cheaper to buy racing lessons and they last a lot longer.
And hey - that's advice from the factory, too!
Ariel Atom Owners Club founder, based in Central London
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Keefyboy
Re: Vegantune
John,
There's no problem for companies like Vegantune to experiment with setup etc. The way the Atom brand is growing means there's going to be many more who think there's room for improvement in the not too distant future, especially as more and more head out onto the circuit for race purposes. I already know of a Supercharged one making its way into racing circles which will need some real testing to modify the naturally aspirated settings.
I can also see where you're going with this setup thingy: entertaining yet 'safe' for your average punters and pole setting pace for race days.
In my opinion and experience with the current range of Atoms, you don't need to modify the original 'chassis' to achieve this. So, just to point out to every owner of one who reads this board, you can have these two setups from a factory built Ariel and quite easily. In fact you can get away with a simple tweak of the suspension settings for a quick solution.
All,
I don't want to seem awkward but trying to improve on the Atom's race spec is a never ending story: four way adjustable suspension (now available from Ohlins with four million settings
...), sequential dog engagement box with straight cut gears, flat floor - the list is endless. However, everything before this has already been tested by Ariel, with and without success.
Getting a setup to help reduce spins for Joe Public shouldn't take more than a day at a general test, especially with the 245 John owns and the setup available from the adjustable shocks. The original chassis design really doesn't need any modifications for this. At Brands Hatch John's was setup as if it was to be run on slicks which didn't do his road legal Yoko's any favours and caused the car to be very tail happy.
It wasn't a school boy error to run the stiffer springs, just a little too keen to stiffen the whole chassis up - which anybody with a keen interest in motorsport setup would do to a standard Atom. The easy solution to John's problem? Run a slightly softer spring on the rear and a slightly stiffer spring on the front (which John already knows about). I'm not too sure but I think the camber was a little too excessive as well - but I might be wrong?
Keith
There's no problem for companies like Vegantune to experiment with setup etc. The way the Atom brand is growing means there's going to be many more who think there's room for improvement in the not too distant future, especially as more and more head out onto the circuit for race purposes. I already know of a Supercharged one making its way into racing circles which will need some real testing to modify the naturally aspirated settings.
I can also see where you're going with this setup thingy: entertaining yet 'safe' for your average punters and pole setting pace for race days.
In my opinion and experience with the current range of Atoms, you don't need to modify the original 'chassis' to achieve this. So, just to point out to every owner of one who reads this board, you can have these two setups from a factory built Ariel and quite easily. In fact you can get away with a simple tweak of the suspension settings for a quick solution.
All,
I don't want to seem awkward but trying to improve on the Atom's race spec is a never ending story: four way adjustable suspension (now available from Ohlins with four million settings
...), sequential dog engagement box with straight cut gears, flat floor - the list is endless. However, everything before this has already been tested by Ariel, with and without success.Getting a setup to help reduce spins for Joe Public shouldn't take more than a day at a general test, especially with the 245 John owns and the setup available from the adjustable shocks. The original chassis design really doesn't need any modifications for this. At Brands Hatch John's was setup as if it was to be run on slicks which didn't do his road legal Yoko's any favours and caused the car to be very tail happy.
It wasn't a school boy error to run the stiffer springs, just a little too keen to stiffen the whole chassis up - which anybody with a keen interest in motorsport setup would do to a standard Atom. The easy solution to John's problem? Run a slightly softer spring on the rear and a slightly stiffer spring on the front (which John already knows about). I'm not too sure but I think the camber was a little too excessive as well - but I might be wrong?
Keith
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haymanator
Re: Vegantune
[quote="AtomFun"]
Nice to see this thread coming to life with some good debate.
John, one comment regarding spinning. I think you will agree that no amount of tweaking with the Atom's build will stop a bad driver spinning. Improvements might help a bad driver spin at faster speeds whereas it'll help a good driver win a race.
[/quote]
UTTERLY AGREE!
Nice to see this thread coming to life with some good debate.
John, one comment regarding spinning. I think you will agree that no amount of tweaking with the Atom's build will stop a bad driver spinning. Improvements might help a bad driver spin at faster speeds whereas it'll help a good driver win a race.
[/quote]
UTTERLY AGREE!
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haymanator
Re: Vegantune
[quote="Keefyboy"]
John,
There's no problem for companies like Vegantune to experiment with setup etc. The way the Atom brand is growing means there's going to be many more who think there's room for improvement in the not too distant future, especially as more and more head out onto the circuit for race purposes. I already know of a Supercharged one making its way into racing circles which will need some real testing to modify the naturally aspirated settings.
I can also see where you're going with this setup thingy: entertaining yet 'safe' for your average punters and pole setting pace for race days.
In my opinion and experience with the current range of Atoms, you don't need to modify the original 'chassis' to achieve this. So, just to point out to every owner of one who reads this board, you can have these two setups from a factory built Ariel and quite easily. In fact you can get away with a simple tweak of the suspension settings for a quick solution.
All,
I don't want to seem awkward but trying to improve on the Atom's race spec is a never ending story: four way adjustable suspension (now available from Ohlins with four million settings ...), sequential dog engagement box with straight cut gears, flat floor - the list is endless. However, everything before this has already been tested by Ariel, with and without success.
Getting a setup to help reduce spins for Joe Public shouldn't take more than a day at a general test, especially with the 245 John owns and the setup available from the adjustable shocks. The original chassis design really doesn't need any modifications for this. At Brands Hatch John's was setup as if it was to be run on slicks which didn't do his road legal Yoko's any favours and caused the car to be very tail happy.
It wasn't a school boy error to run the stiffer springs, just a little too keen to stiffen the whole chassis up - which anybody with a keen interest in motorsport setup would do to a standard Atom. The easy solution to John's problem? Run a slightly softer spring on the rear and a slightly stiffer spring on the front (which John already knows about). I'm not too sure but I think the camber was a little too excessive as well - but I might be wrong?
Keith
[/quote]
Keith
nope camber was fine in the end......basically we took a load off cos the car was soooo stiff at the rear it wasn't rolling over onto the whole of the tyre face (measured temps across tyre tread everytime it came in).
what you are spot-on about is running springs that are great on slicks but hopeless on road tyres, yup it did oversteer...everywhere!
it was a battle keeping it on the track pointing in the right direction (hence the hopeless lap times), thats why a bit of track testing with some spare parts (like springs) will bring the car on no end (it was its first event remember, and usually i don't get to drive it because its got a client and instructor in it).
that said, setting the car up (flat floor) is a problem at the moment with the friction in the suspension components, i know the factory have experimented with bearings in place of bushes, vegantune are also looking into this area, one never knows, maybe, just maybe a different engineer looking at the same thing... just might come up with a different solution.
we are though talking about the final honing for an individual here, as has been said, these kind of changes are for those using their cars at 100% , at the same time, vegantune can get to really know the atom inside out and be able to offer support to others in the future.
then with driver training, car set up, circuit knowledge, we may never see the words 'spin' on this forum ever again....he, he!
John,
There's no problem for companies like Vegantune to experiment with setup etc. The way the Atom brand is growing means there's going to be many more who think there's room for improvement in the not too distant future, especially as more and more head out onto the circuit for race purposes. I already know of a Supercharged one making its way into racing circles which will need some real testing to modify the naturally aspirated settings.
I can also see where you're going with this setup thingy: entertaining yet 'safe' for your average punters and pole setting pace for race days.
In my opinion and experience with the current range of Atoms, you don't need to modify the original 'chassis' to achieve this. So, just to point out to every owner of one who reads this board, you can have these two setups from a factory built Ariel and quite easily. In fact you can get away with a simple tweak of the suspension settings for a quick solution.
All,
I don't want to seem awkward but trying to improve on the Atom's race spec is a never ending story: four way adjustable suspension (now available from Ohlins with four million settings
...), sequential dog engagement box with straight cut gears, flat floor - the list is endless. However, everything before this has already been tested by Ariel, with and without success.Getting a setup to help reduce spins for Joe Public shouldn't take more than a day at a general test, especially with the 245 John owns and the setup available from the adjustable shocks. The original chassis design really doesn't need any modifications for this. At Brands Hatch John's was setup as if it was to be run on slicks which didn't do his road legal Yoko's any favours and caused the car to be very tail happy.
It wasn't a school boy error to run the stiffer springs, just a little too keen to stiffen the whole chassis up - which anybody with a keen interest in motorsport setup would do to a standard Atom. The easy solution to John's problem? Run a slightly softer spring on the rear and a slightly stiffer spring on the front (which John already knows about). I'm not too sure but I think the camber was a little too excessive as well - but I might be wrong?
Keith
[/quote]
Keith
nope camber was fine in the end......basically we took a load off cos the car was soooo stiff at the rear it wasn't rolling over onto the whole of the tyre face (measured temps across tyre tread everytime it came in).
what you are spot-on about is running springs that are great on slicks but hopeless on road tyres, yup it did oversteer...everywhere!
it was a battle keeping it on the track pointing in the right direction (hence the hopeless lap times), thats why a bit of track testing with some spare parts (like springs) will bring the car on no end (it was its first event remember, and usually i don't get to drive it because its got a client and instructor in it).
that said, setting the car up (flat floor) is a problem at the moment with the friction in the suspension components, i know the factory have experimented with bearings in place of bushes, vegantune are also looking into this area, one never knows, maybe, just maybe a different engineer looking at the same thing... just might come up with a different solution.
we are though talking about the final honing for an individual here, as has been said, these kind of changes are for those using their cars at 100% , at the same time, vegantune can get to really know the atom inside out and be able to offer support to others in the future.
then with driver training, car set up, circuit knowledge, we may never see the words 'spin' on this forum ever again....he, he!
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Keefyboy
Re: Vegantune
John,
I think you'll find the needle rockers will improve the car no end, expect to see as much as half a second improvement.
It all sounds interesting, I'm glad to see you're making the effort, it'll be nice to see it win again! Not that you'll need it, but if you do need a crash test dummy or a second drivers opinion I'm always happy to help out, just get my number from Tom at Ariel.
Keith
PS: Never see the word 'spin' on the Atom Forum? Pah, neverÂ
Not a bad thing though, as a rookie you're always told that if you don't spin, you're not trying hard enough... just don't hit anything when you do 
I think you'll find the needle rockers will improve the car no end, expect to see as much as half a second improvement.
It all sounds interesting, I'm glad to see you're making the effort, it'll be nice to see it win again! Not that you'll need it, but if you do need a crash test dummy or a second drivers opinion I'm always happy to help out, just get my number from Tom at Ariel.
Keith
PS: Never see the word 'spin' on the Atom Forum? Pah, neverÂ
Not a bad thing though, as a rookie you're always told that if you don't spin, you're not trying hard enough... just don't hit anything when you do -
AtomFun
Re: Vegantune
Thanks for the info Keith.
Any ideas how many Atoms will be racing? Will this be a similar day to the AMOC at Brands when Atom did so well?
Any ideas how many Atoms will be racing? Will this be a similar day to the AMOC at Brands when Atom did so well?
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Keefyboy
Re: Vegantune
Atomfun,
Same format, the Mids will be out first with an Invitaional race at the end of the day. Not sure on numbers but I know Steve Kerr will be racing (with new found confidence!) as well as David Ball (ever get a chance to meet him, do, his a real nice guy).
Get along if you live in that part of the world, I'm sure the Atom racers would appreciate the support. Good to nick a few setups off the boys too...
John, are you racing?
Keith
Same format, the Mids will be out first with an Invitaional race at the end of the day. Not sure on numbers but I know Steve Kerr will be racing (with new found confidence!) as well as David Ball (ever get a chance to meet him, do, his a real nice guy).
Get along if you live in that part of the world, I'm sure the Atom racers would appreciate the support. Good to nick a few setups off the boys too...
John, are you racing?
Keith
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AtomFun
Re: Vegantune
[quote="Keefyboy"]
John, are you racing?
[/quote]
I'm to old to race Keith - nice thought though!
Just waiting for my Atom 245 - probably the end of the month.
I'll try and get to Oulton.
John, are you racing?
[/quote]
I'm to old to race Keith - nice thought though!
Just waiting for my Atom 245 - probably the end of the month.
I'll try and get to Oulton.
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haymanator
Re: Vegantune
[quote="Keefyboy"]
Atomfun,
John, are you racing?
Keith
[/quote]
dunno yet........would like to, love oulton............it feels like its ages away and ive no idea if i'm free!
maybe i should look in my diary.................
Atomfun,
John, are you racing?
Keith
[/quote]
dunno yet........would like to, love oulton............it feels like its ages away and ive no idea if i'm free!
maybe i should look in my diary.................
Re: Vegantune
Nice to see you on this forum Keith. 
your experience will in every case help us.
Jean-Pascal
your experience will in every case help us.
Jean-Pascal
Jean-Pascal
Atom 3.5 310 Honda LHD
Atom 3.5 310 Honda LHD
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