Who insists on roll bars in NZ?

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Expand view Topic review: Who insists on roll bars in NZ?

Re: Who insists on roll bars in NZ?

by apollyon25 » Wed Apr 02, 2008 6:42 pm

Yes Chelles day got canned as not enough participants.
Thats the one though...

Re: Who insists on roll bars in NZ?

by KiwiXTR2 » Wed Apr 02, 2008 2:03 pm

I think the 14th was 'chelles (sp) trackday that got cancelled.  It's now an open test-day for both road & race-cars.  It's a good price, particularly including a garage, but not sure if work commitments will let me get there. ???

ClubSub, like NZHondas and other 'social clubs', are not affiliated to MSNZ and can run a trackday without being compelled to follow MSNZ regulations.

Re: Who insists on roll bars in NZ?

by wisp » Wed Apr 02, 2008 12:14 pm

[quote="KiwiXTR2"]
[quote="apollyon25"]
Update:
The Taupo trackday I was planning on attending has abandoned the format which would have operated under the MSNZ umbrella. So I have a trackday to go to!
Yay!
[/quote]
Which one is it?  I might see you there  :tu:
[/quote]

Is it the ClubSUB event on the 13th April that is not being run as a Motorsport Sanctioned day as it is classified as a Training Day?

Re: Who insists on roll bars in NZ?

by apollyon25 » Wed Apr 02, 2008 8:14 am

Well that explains the discrepancy between the two values...

KiwiXTR2 - Its on the 14th around the A1GP track as far as I know.

Re: Who insists on roll bars in NZ?

by wisp » Wed Apr 02, 2008 6:13 am

[quote="KiwiXTR2"]
I haven't done Targa for about 10 years but when I was looking at it for my Westfield I 'thought' that the power was at the wheels (including rubber) and the weight included all fluids and an allowance for driver & co-driver.  You can then ballast the car with steel if you're close.

[/quote]

For the power to weight ratio the  HP is taken at the flywheel. I am not sure if a 220 is less than the conversion of 164kW.

Minimum weight does allow for driver & co-driver but it does not state that minimum weight is used for the power to weight calculation. The rule only mentions "vehicle weight" only.

Minimum weight is calculated as:
456kg - production (showroom) weight. This could be more if the weight needs to include some fluids. Fuel in most cases is not.
160kg - crew i.e. driver and co-driver.
65kg - dispensation for LVVT vehicles
681kg - Minimum weight allowed

If minimum weight was used for the calculation it would stack up like this....
A 164kw (220) car @ 4.5kg/kW needs to weigh 738kg. The difference is 57kg.
A 182kw (245) car @ 4.5kg/kW needs to weigh 819kg. The difference is 138kg.
A 223kw (300) car @ 4.5kg/kW needs to weigh 1003kg. The difference is 322kg.

otherwise the result would be....
A 164kw (220) car @ 4.5kg/kW needs to weigh 738kg. The difference is 282kg.
A 182kw (245) car @ 4.5kg/kW needs to weigh 819kg. The difference is 363kg.
A 223kw (300) car @ 4.5kg/kW needs to weigh 1003kg. The difference is 547kg.

The Mark1 at 95kW is quids in. The bolt-on roll cage, that is MSNZ approved, is a real put off.

Re: Who insists on roll bars in NZ?

by KiwiXTR2 » Wed Apr 02, 2008 4:05 am

[quote="apollyon25"]
Update:
The Taupo trackday I was planning on attending has abandoned the format which would have operated under the MSNZ umbrella. So I have a trackday to go to!
Yay!
[/quote]
Which one is it?  I might see you there  :tu:

Re: Who insists on roll bars in NZ?

by apollyon25 » Wed Apr 02, 2008 3:52 am

The NZ Targa has a Tour stage which doesnt need the cage and weight restriction though...
The 2007 event also had a timed tour as well altough this may have required a full or half cage. I didnt bother looking into it any further as the delays with my car meant I missed the event entirely.

The 500HP car is supposed to be 500kg right?
500kg/373kW ~ 1.3kg/kW so you'd have to add 1178kg to get 1678kg/373kW = 4.5
You were right the first time John, +282kg needed for the 220HP car.

Update:
The Taupo trackday I was planning on attending has abandoned the format which would have operated under the MSNZ umbrella. So I have a trackday to go to!
Yay!

Re: Who insists on roll bars in NZ?

by NathanE » Tue Apr 01, 2008 2:06 pm

Oh pants.  I'll need to go on a diet too  ;D

Re: Who insists on roll bars in NZ?

by wisp » Tue Apr 01, 2008 1:17 pm

[quote="Mr.Toad"]
[quote="wisp"]

It's approximately 282kg of ballast or a co-driver that's eaten more than his share of pies.


[/quote]

I'll volunteer if you pay for the flights  ;D
[/quote]

Actually, I lied. It's 57kg so you'll have to save your own fare.  :laugh:

Re: Who insists on roll bars in NZ?

by NathanE » Tue Apr 01, 2008 12:54 pm

[quote="wisp"]

It's approximately 282kg of ballast or a co-driver that's eaten more than his share of pies.


[/quote]

I'll volunteer if you pay for the flights  ;D

Re: Who insists on roll bars in NZ?

by wisp » Tue Apr 01, 2008 12:43 pm

[quote="KiwiXTR2"]
Without doing the calcs I'm guessing the amount of ballast needed to get an Atom 220 within the regulation would be huge and too dangerous.

[/quote]

It's approximately 282kg of ballast or a co-driver that's eaten more than his share of pies.

Re: Who insists on roll bars in NZ?

by KiwiXTR2 » Tue Apr 01, 2008 12:38 pm

[quote="wisp"]edit: Targa note.

It was mentioned in an earlier post that events like the NZ Dunlop Targa require a full MSNZ approved roll cage.

For the record, Atoms are not able to enter the Dunlop Targa as they do not comply to Rule 4.11 of Section 2.
This rule states that vehicles can not have a power to weight ratio where the weight of the car is less than 4.5kg per kilowatt of engine power.
A 220HP Atom is 164 kW with a dry weight of 456 kg. This equates to 2.7kg/kW.
[/quote]
I haven't done Targa for about 10 years but when I was looking at it for my Westfield I 'thought' that the power was at the wheels (including rubber) and the weight included all fluids and an allowance for driver & co-driver.  You can then ballast the car with steel if you're close.

Without doing the calcs I'm guessing the amount of ballast needed to get an Atom 220 within the regulation would be huge and too dangerous.

The killer for me was the need to have a modified cage that would deflect any No.8 wires fences from decapitating driver & co-driver.  :o

Re: Who insists on roll bars in NZ?

by wisp » Sun Mar 30, 2008 4:35 am

[quote="Bruce Fielding"]
Is it the authorities?

Is it the trackday organisers?

Or is it the tracks?

If it's the first, then on private land, surely you can do what you like.

If it's the last, then you're scuppered.

If it's the  TDO's then why not organise your own trackday and have whatever rules you like?

Alternatively, start a pressure group as there must be other marques that aren't allowed who would band together with you. Or find out who is allowed without roll bars and lobby. Lobby the sports authority, or better yet, lobby the government about restrictive practices.
[/quote]


Bruce,
In answer to your questions:

It is the authorities, namely MotorSport New Zealand (MSNZ), who insist on roll bars and cages.
MSNZ is the sole authority appointed by the Fédération Internationale de l'Automobile (FIA) to regulate motor sport in New Zealand.
They require a roll bar as mandatory equipment on any open road registered vehicles for ClubSport Events. This includes Autocross, Standing Sprints (single car) and Motorkhanas.
A roll cage is mandatory in all vehicles when carrying a passenger in Speed Events.

Further more Roll Protection homologation (approval) by MSNZ is mandatory. All vehicles fitted with roll protection shall have a MotorSport NZ approval certificate contained within the vehicleâ??s logbook. The standard Atom roll bar is not MSNZ homologated as far as I am aware.

Clubs and track owners do not have to run MSNZ sanctioned events but it limits them to what they can actually do and therefore the participants they will attract. MSNZ states one of their aims to be "To provide simple and effective rules to govern the sport respecting as and where appropriate the FIA Sporting Code and NZ Legislation." Any TDO or club still has to comply to the later.

Having drivers sign a waiver does still not protect the club officials or TDO from being prosecuted by the Occupational Health Safety (OSH), a government department responsible for safety.

IMO one of the best events to test yourself without having to back off for slower cornering traffic or risk a pile up due to someone else spinning is the Standing Sprint (single car) event. I think an AAOC NZ TDO would probably require a MSNZ permit. I have yet to gather all the info on the options available.


edit: Targa note.

It was mentioned in an earlier post that events like the NZ Dunlop Targa require a full MSNZ approved roll cage.

For the record, Atoms are not able to enter the Dunlop Targa as they do not comply to Rule 4.11 of Section 2.
This rule states that vehicles can not have a power to weight ratio where the weight of the car is less than 4.5kg per kilowatt of engine power.
A 220HP Atom is 164 kW with a dry weight of 456 kg. This equates to 2.7kg/kW.

Re: Who insists on roll bars in NZ?

by KiwiXTR2 » Sat Mar 29, 2008 3:01 am

Not particularly wishing to enflame the debate, but anyone who has had any significant dealings with MSNZ knows that it's not just objective safety that motives them.

Their actions over the years clearly indicate that they are also motivated by:
- Sustaining their own local monopoly
- Maintaining their own regulations rather than judiciously adopting the regulations of other bigger, more experienced, and better funded countries.
- Prioritizing their own organizational risk over the reasonable needs and expectations of the drivers they are supposed to serve.

Progressive is not a word that could be associated with MSNZ

Re: Who insists on roll bars in NZ?

by apollyon25 » Fri Mar 28, 2008 8:13 pm

How about you post all the information you have John?!
If you have talked to MSNZ then clearly they have a view - what is it?

I based my comments on my interpretation of what the regulations state and from my discussions with various TDO's and with Fraser Cars.

I'll bolt on a roll bar, but I will never weld up my chassis like Ferrit.
I intend to crawl around a track before I walk and before I run - surely this makes sense?!?!
Doesnt it?

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