Ariel.Club Forum

Fair enough!

Dunno if you'll get much interest in knocking off Ariels frame design, though....   

Jamin,
Yes, no rollers or chassis. Why? I donâ??t know ask Ariel, but I have heard that many people feel that may affect the perceived value of this â??supercarâ?�.

Also the reason YOU donâ??t think my plan to swap out the Eco for k series is all that cool is because you donâ??t understand all the elements in MY equation. I have access to JDM parts and such at very good deals, and my day job is Owner / Operator of a well equipped machine shop with a â??raceâ?� car building back round.

If someone would let me borrow their Ariel for a month I would copy the darn thing myself. Any takers? I give you back an extra frame for your trouble. LOL As, others have pointed out, building a race car from scratch is not simple, but copying one is. I just want the Ariel to cruise, race, tinker, etc. So in my equation, the cheapest and quickest path to having a car is what I desire. May be I get some brkts ready for the Honda K series Diesel and run my home brew Biodiesel. Everyone walks different paths.

Thanks,
TW

Damn - why no rollers?  I wanted one sans engine as well, because I want the LE5 block in there to build from, and it's the only EcoTec varient they don't offer! 

Cheap Eco parts....

www.gmpartsdirect.com is where most of us go.  Occasionally find something cheaper, but they have the best average.

I don't begrudge anyone their personal preferences, but buying a car with the EcoTec drivetrain just to gut it and install the Honda when the Honda unit is available seems like a lateral ove to me, lol.  The "cheap" 2.2 Eco could be moddified to match or exceed the Honda unit's performance a lot more easily than you might think.  The stock roller followers and HLA's are good to 9700 RPM, so call it 9k to be safe.  In other words - valve springs and you have 9k+ redline ability on the top end.  The bottom end - the stock main bearings have been put to north of 900 hp and 10k rpm without failure, so they're good - run the destroked crank with their forged rods, balance the assembly, and you're hotter cams and an engine management system away from a 240+ hp 2.0 liter 9k rpm monster.  HP Tuners makes the software, so you don't even need a standalone.  And if you want to add boost down the road, all the parts already exist courtesy of the supercharged and turbocharged factory versions.

Damn I tend to get long on this topic, lol.  Sorry 'bout that.  I guess in my mind the motors are at the very least equals, and there's just so much more potential in the Eco with so much less work!

McFred,
Thanks for all the feedback!

My plan is pretty clear, order the â??cheaperâ?� EcoTec version and when that baby gets here, get out the Tig torch and machine up some brkts for the K series. Hopefully, someone will want the EcoTec for a project engine, parts, etc.

Serious, anyone interested in jointly contacting Brammo and working out some kind of deal for the engine, I am game. He can supply the EcoTec to you for your car, and give me a real world discount and ship mine without an engine.

This is exactly why Ariel / Brammo should sell frames and or rolling chassis. Donâ??t try that, â??would you ask Ford or BMW to do that?â?� argument. Ford and BMW sell very different vehicles. They are not selling a race prep type of kit car that is difficult to register and insure for road use. Not apples to apples. Ford & BMW pass all NHTSA and EPA laws. I also get a pretty decent warranty.

Donâ??t read me wrong I love the Ariel, just wish I could have it my way. A bit selfish?
Yes. Is anyone building a clone or replica of the Atom?

Later,
TW

I don't see how that makes it any more simple, it was not complicated to begin with IMO.    People have their brand preference.  Regardless of the chosen drivetrain Brammo should support the platforms as delivered from the factory.  Both Honda K-series engines as well as GM engines are being produced in the USA.  When it comes to major internal components/castings, either should be fairly available and competively priced regardless.

Jamin, do you know of any inexpensive online Ecotec parts distributors?  I know some for Acura and Honda I would be interested in comparing replacement part prices out of morbid curiosity.

The solution to all this is so simple it's scary!



Buy the EcoTec. 

[quote="tigwelder"]McFred, the top photo is a civic swap correct? Before the swap it had left side timing cases, correct? When doing such a swap you must use the matching transaxle, correct? Are all Kâ??s right side timing conf.? For example, I donâ??t know what an Acura Integra comes with in USDM stock configuration. I believe most of them are left side timing along with the majority of other Honda cars. Is this wrong?[/quote]

Yes, a Civic hatchback.
Yes, the original Civic engine has the timing belt cover on the other side.
Yes, the appropriate gearbox should be used, otherwise customization is required.
Yes, all K-series engines have the timing covers on the 'right' side.
In the USA Acura Integra GSRs and Type-Rs came with B18C engines and had the timing covers on the left side.  SOHC D-series (mostly in Civics) and F-series (mostly in Accords) and DOHC H-series (in Preludes) all had timing covers on the left hand side.

[quote="tigwelder"]When you say â??sourceâ?� parts, are you referring to the local used Honda parts guy, or a local JDM import guy?[/quote]

Both.  You can get 90% of all the K-series stuff you need from your local Honda/Acura dealer/salvage yard.  The other 10% could be purchased through importers or from the aftermarket.

You may not be confused, but I am!

Then again, that's a natural state for me...

...and it's not my barbeque. It belongs to the world! (But sometimes the tongs need a bit of a scrape)

Bruce, with respect, I am not confused about this issue. Confused means you cannot understand the information you already have. I just need more information to broaden my knowledge base. I knew their was and are civics with left and right side timing covers which made it very clear to me that you could not use one with left side timing covers in an  UK Ariel. I know this is your barbeque, but what is the problem with working it out on the forum?

McFred, Thanks for the good input. The top photo is a civic swap correct? Before the swap it had left side timing cases, correct? When doing such a swap you must use the matching transaxle, correct? It seems you know your Hondas, at least much better than I. Are all Kâ??s right side timing conf.? For example, I donâ??t know what an Acura Integra comes with in USDM stock configuration. I believe most of them are left side timing along with the majority of other Honda cars. Is this wrong?

When you say â??sourceâ?� parts, are you referring to the local used Honda parts guy, or a local JDM import guy? I understand all the small things like injectors, chains, pulleys, etc will be the same.

It sounds like you indicated that there are plenty of USDM models with a right side set up.

Thanks, again. This is why I ask on a forum and not the factory. It was really a question that someone with extensive Honda experience needed to answer. Additionally, it did not waste Craigâ??s time, and a lot more people are able to learn from the thread.

Later,
TW

Oops - I meant NO great expert

Ron

I freely admit to being great expert in this area, but recall asking Simon a couple of years ago if the engine in the Atom was out of the S2000 and he said no - it was a Japanese Import and I though that he said it was because it rotated in the opposite direction.....

Ron

Contacting the factory is always a good idea.  But for the reccord, ALL K-series engines spin clockwise if looking at the crank pulley, be it JDM, EDM, USDM, Australian whatever.  Honda used to spin counter/anticlockwise with the older engines (H-series, B-series, D-series, etc.).  No one "spun the engine 'round" it is a simlpe rearward shift from the front to the rear. 

Engines are pretty easy to source here in the States and transmissions are geared almost all the same (depending on production year) and there are quite a few chassis that the same /similar components came in (RSX, TSX, Civic Si).  The biggest issue I think might be servicing the limited slip differential.  But you would have to try pretty hard to ruin one of those and the new Civic Si here has got the part now.  So IMO there are no reasons to favor the GM engines over the Honda engines in terms of parts availability, especially when it comes to aftermarket performance parts.


Here's an illustration on engine position:
K20 swapped Civic, front engine, front wheel drive:


Here's an Atom 220, K20 rear engine, rear wheel drive:


Transmissions on the same side, engines on the same side, intake manifold in the front, zorst out the back, 6 gears forward, one reverse.  No magic, no funny business. Make sense?

...and now the confusion is well and truly established, we come back to my first post...

Try calling the factory... in all likelihood, they'll have the answers you're looking for!

As I said I am no Honda expert, but you donâ??t have to be an expert to understand that if you spin around a FWD drive train and mount it in the back of any vehicle, you will be going backwards. They must be drawn straight back regardless of market.

Jaimin, The reason it matters is because if the Brammo version of Ariel is set up for NON USDM it makes getting spare engines / transaxles difficult. Especially for a car that is marketed as a â??track dayâ?� car. The car should be set up to use USDM Honda parts not JDM, UK, or otherwise.

Ron,
Are you sure the UK and JDM versions spin opposite? I thought the only â??odd ballsâ?� were for the USDM market. Apples to apples, I know USDM Honda Civics have left side timing covers, which means you cannot simply do a wrenches only swap with a UK Ariel. Every Ariel I have ever seen had right side timing covers.

Matt,
Hopefully Ron, can provide answers on engine rotation. I would hope they are all the same.

As for transaxles, are you implying that different market transaxles are mixed together with other market engines, or that Ariel and Brammo are flipping around ring gears and such? Or did you just mean in theory? Practically it sounds a little far reached, unnecessary, and inefficient.

For the â??Ecoâ?�, many companies jump on the Eco band wagon to imply things that may not be accurate. I just wanted to know if it had favorable emission. Thanks for stating that it does.

So back to were I started, if the US Ariel is the same engine set up as the UK, then buying the Honda version if available, may not make to much sense based upon your intended use. I have seen some USDM right side set ups; I believe they were type R only. Not sure. Hopefully some super tuner can sum this up in a paragraph or 2.
So US buyers that love Hondas and have many spares, make sure you donâ??t assume too much or rely on simple one lined statements.

Thanks
TW

[quote="tigwelder"]Also, not sure about the wrong way around? If you â??spinâ?� the engine around you would have five speeds in the reverse direction.[/quote]
That's only if the transaxle remains the same. 

If the ring gear remains on the same side of the differential, you'll have multiple reverse gears.  If's it's flipped around and moved to the other side, it works normally.

The Ecotec does indeed have favorable EPA emission standards.  (Guess what the "Eco" part stands for...)

So, timing belt position aside, what's the difference between the two Honda engines?